Block chain is still sold by Rexnord Chain co. USA
Phil Scott Clayton,Ohio
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 8:23 PM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 20, Issue 93
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Today's Topics:
1. RE: Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify 2. Previously-submitted posting (Don Jacobson) 3. marnati and coppi bike for sale. (Matteo Brandi) 4. Holdsworth Hurlow LaQuelda Sold (Michael Butler) 5. Re: marnati and coppi bike for sale. (richardsachs@juno.com) 6. For Sale Regina America Six Speed Freewheel Mint (Charles Nighbor) 7. Re: Medici History (Joe Bender-Zanoni) 8. Re: Medici History (richardsachs@juno.com) 9. Re: Schraeder rim --> Presta valve adapters (Dave Abraham) 10. Fw: Identifying Alex Singer frames (Norris Lockley) 11. Reynolds vs. Columbus : Who's lighter ?? (Donald Gillies) 12. Re: Reynolds vs. Columbus : Who's lighter ?? (richardsachs@juno.com) 13. RE: Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify (r cielec) 14. Inch pitch chain source wanted 15. Ephgrave matters (Thomas E Ward)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:01:01 +0000 From: hersefan@comcast.net To: "Bingham, Wayne R." <WBINGHAM@imf.org>, "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: RE: [CR]Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify Message-ID: <082720042001.4370.412F92FD0004296D000011122200737478020E000A9C9D0A08@co mcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 1
It is a fun idea to try to identify tubing and resulting ride characteristics, but it is very tricky. The problem is that builders often think of tubing in terms of guage instead of model designation. Thus a frame with Reynolds 531 but with a couple of Columbus tubes - well what guage Columbus tubes were used? The main issue is that tube guage and butting profiles (and shape of chainstays) are significant, but brand of tubing is virtually irrelevent - by and large, steel is steel. Now, it would be a great project to identify ride charactersics and tube guage, but it is very difficult to find frames with identical geometry and known differences in tube guage (I bet some list members know some examples though!) In the one case where I did make a comparison, I had three identical Waterford frames except I ordered different tube guages for downtube and chainstays. The differences, especially when heavy chainstays were used, were very easy to feel when riding. Mike Kone in Boulder CO
> Richard Cielec wrote, in part:
> >>>>I am generally aware that bicycles were constructed of mixed
tubing
> to acheive particular ride characteristics. And, some of these "mixed"
> bicycles offer excellent rides.
> May I ask those who know the tubing mix of their bikes if they would
> offer comment - what tubes, year, make, model of bike, how the bike
> rides, etc..?<<<<
>
> I have a copy of the original build sheet for my Stan Pike, which was
> built in '83. Even though the frame sports a Reynolds 531SL red label,
> the frame is made up of various types of tubes, all identified on the
> sheet. The mix is as follows:
>
> Reynolds 531 - top tube, seat tube, head tube
> Super Vitus - down tube, seat and chain stays
> Columbus - forks
>
> I believe it was quite common for builders of the era, particularly
> small-output builders, to mix tubes based on what their vision of the
> frame was. (Or maybe they were just using what was lying around the
> shop.)
>
> My Pike is quite light, considering weight was not a consideration at
> the time. It's built with a mix of various components. Gipiemme/Modolo
> (crankset/seatpost/brakes), N-Rec (shifters/derailleurs), Record
> (hubs/BB), Galli (rims), 3ttt (stem/bars), Edco (headset). I haven't
> really weighed the frame. Maybe someday. It's a great riding bike, one
> of my favorites, but I haven't put thousands of miles on it either.
> I've ridden it with two different wheelsets, the Rec/Galli 15g 32
spoke
> 3x set mentioned above, with UFO tubulars, and with Rec/Sun 15/16g
> butted 32 spoke 2x front 3x rear with Michelin somethingorothers.
> However, the wheelset probably has more to do with the "feel" of a
bike
> than the tubes used. At least IMO.
>
> Wayne Bingham
> Montevideo Uruguay (temporarily)
> _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:04:23 -0500 From: "Don Jacobson" <donjacob@seize-theday.com> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Previously-submitted posting Message-ID: <NCBBIDJLHNKDAPCLKLDEKEBCGPAA.donjacob@seize-theday.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2
Hi!
Was wondering if/when my question about repair in crack on Fuji Ti Frame would be posted. First time I've tried to post something. Did I submit it wrong?
Don Jacobson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:24:15 +0200 From: Matteo Brandi <bees.bfg@tin.it> To: cr list <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]marnati and coppi bike for sale. Message-ID: <BD55650F.27D5%bees.bfg@tin.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3
crewsterz
Up for sale 2 bikes,
Thecoppi that went unsold shortly ago:
http://ebay.com/
520 shipped,or pickup in Moorestown.
I also have A super cool MArnati bike size 58.5x55 c-c.Bike is equipped with campagnolo parts(universal calipers)Plenty pantographing goin on.supercool!Shield shaped cutouts in the lugs.I ve received the following response from Takao Noda regardin this bike
"Hello Matteo, Umberto Marnati was a builder and mechanic at Legnano team and several times participated TdF as a mechanic of Italian National team and Legnano team. In 1970s he opened a shop in Milan as well as Lupo Mascheroni who was also a mechanic at Legnano.In 1983 he built frames for VIVI-Benotto team. I bought a frame in 1983 but it was crashed by car when I was exercising on the road. I heard Umberto died and now his son, Danielle Marnati , was making frames. The shop moved out of Milano City due to regulation of using propane gas.
Regards Takao Noda
Im askin 800 usd for this.TIme to rock the local retro -rides with something different!:)
Tons of pix available.
Thank u all
Matteo BRandi Firenze Italia
------------------------------
Date: 27 Aug 2004 20:30:25 +0000 From: "Michael Butler" <allondon@rock.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR] Holdsworth Hurlow LaQuelda Sold Message-ID: <D6A59A13_AE8E_44BA_9698_42438891E421@webmail.loadmail.load.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 4
Just to let you all know the LaQuelda was snapped up straight away plea= se accept my apologies for not answering all your enquiries I was total= ly over whelmed by questions on this one frame out of three=2E=20 Have sent a detailed description of this frames original finish to Norm= ans excellent Holdsworth web site=2E=20 Mick Butler Huntingdon UK=2E=20
__________________________________________________ You Rock! Your E-mail should, too=2E Visit Rock=2Ecom!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:04:30 GMT From: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]marnati and coppi bike for sale. Message-ID: <20040827.140431.9327.442996@webmail19.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5
snipped: Matteo Brandi <bees.bfg@tin.it> wrote: "I heard Umberto died and now his son, Danielle Marnati , was making frames. The shop moved out of Milano City due to regulation of using propane gas."
that's bad news for tailgateing partyers at the A.C. Milan matches this autumn season... e-RICHIE chester, ct
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:06:36 -0700 From: "Charles Nighbor" <cnighbor@pacbell.net> To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]For Sale Regina America Six Speed Freewheel Mint Message-ID: <002d01c48c79$dd584ea0$50087643@cnighbor> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 6
For Sale Regina America Six Speed Freewheel. 13-14-15-17-19-21 Used. I = gor this freewheel of a bicycle I bid on and won on EBay. I need a 28 = cog minimum to get up Mt. diablo therefore I have no use for it. I have = no knowledge of milege on it. Looks great no wear evident. I can take a = picture. $21.50 I ship USA only. Or exchange for a Regina CX-S six or = seven speed freewheel of equal condition. I have extra cogs for that = model. Even a 28 cog. I do need some more spacers however.
Charles Nighbor
Walnut Creek, CA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 17:20:05 -0400 From: Joe Bender-Zanoni <joebz@optonline.net> To: brianbaylis@juno.com, goodrichbikes@netzero.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Medici History Message-ID: <001c01c48bb2$75897a00$6400a8c0@jfbender> References: <20040826.210224.509.332215@webmail14.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Precedence: list Message: 7
I'll add that Recht had a printing or printing ink business in Jersey City, NJ that was, I presume, the basis of the money to dabble in bike building operations. So the factory was the east coast Medici outlet.
Joe Bender-Zanoni
Great Notch, NJ
>
>
> Curt,
>
> The New Jersey location for Medici is actually the home base of Bill
Recht, the owner of Medici Bicycles. I think there was such a thing as
Rexart Cyclery, but I don't know for sure. For the most part, the NJ
address
was the East Coast outlet for Medici, since it was where Bill lived.
Beyond
that, nothing related to the building of the frames happened there.
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
> http://www.vintagecyclestudios.com
>
>
>
> -- "goodrichbikes" <goodrichbikes@netzero.net> wrote:
> I remember a while ago Brian Baylis gave a nice historical story about
Medici. Looking through the Talbot framebuilding book Medici is listed
as
having addresses in Los Angeles and New Jersey. What was going on at
the
New Jersey location?
>
> Curt Goodrich
> Minneapolis, MN
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 21:13:39 GMT From: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Medici History Message-ID: <20040827.141420.9327.443127@webmail19.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 8
he made the ink for the pepsi cans.
e-RICHIE
chester, ct
I'll add that Recht had a printing or printing ink business in Jersey City, NJ that was, I presume, the basis of the money to dabble in bike building operations. So the factory was the east coast Medici outlet.
Joe Bender-Zanoni Great Notch, NJ
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 17:04:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dave Abraham" <dave@hokiespokes.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Re: Schraeder rim --> Presta valve adapters Message-ID: <3462.64.4.124.141.1093640670.squirrel@64.4.124.141> In-Reply-To: <CATFOODK8paSxf9eu050000167a@catfood.nt.phred.org> References: <CATFOODK8paSxf9eu050000167a@catfood.nt.phred.org> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 9
I also have these...$2/pr shipped in CONUS
thanx..
Dave Abraham New Wheel ~ Hokie Spokes Beautiful SW VA voice: (540) 552-7765 (or) 731-1211 FAX: 552-7768 (or) 731-0666 "Treating every bike like our own.."
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:21:49 -0400 From: "Al Petri, Jr." <aljr@petribikes.com> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR]Schraeder rim --> Presta valve adapters Message-ID: <00e501c48c38$d0dae480$6401a8c0@DC8BDY41> References: <41215F42.2020404@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7
In case no one mentioned this, try a Panaracer Schrader-Valve/Presta-Valve Nut, Quality Part Number TU6000.
Look at the picture in Quality's Catalog at your LBS.
On a schrader sized hole, this nut threads onto the Presta Valve (if it is a threaded valve) and has a shoulder that faces down to fill the excess hole size.
Turn it over if using with a presta sized hole.
Al Petri, Jr.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:55:28 +0100 From: "Norris Lockley" <Norris.Lockley@btopenworld.com> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Fw: Identifying Alex Singer frames Message-ID: <001101c48c80$a388f1a0$9cd67ad5@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Precedence: list Message: 10
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Norris Lockley=20 To: classicrendezvouz@bikelist.org=20 Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 10:21 PM Subject: Identifying Alex Singer frames
I have seen a fair few of these frames at the Paris Show over a long = period, but have never until last week had reason to try to identify = one. Coming back from the south of France I stopped at a "Depot-Vente" - one = of those curiosities of the French wayside where one can buy, or sell = for that matter, almost anything secondhand, from Second Empire toilets = and bidets, to stuffed foxes, customised Ciroen 2CVs, wood-wormed eaten = oak panelling, any 12"LP record you could think of almost to... of = course, bicycles in all shapes and sizes. It never ceases to surprise me = that in France, the land of the "beau velo", "la Petite Reine" where, as = one renowned Paris-based cycle-shop owner confined in me "...well, you = see, for we Frenchmen, la Petite Reine is like a good woman.. for she = must be beautiful, she must be elegant and have good lines.. and most of = all ..she must ride and perform well when we are astride her".. that = second-hand bikes are discarded, as readily as the flimsy wooden boxes = that hold a sweaty Camembert cheese, and that many of these once proud = bikes end up in a weed-overgrown plot claiming to be an "outside sales = area", closeby the side of a busy RN road.. A second surprise is that = almost regardless of the quality of the bike in question, they are = priced at incredibly modest cost. And so it was that, leaning against a pile of rusting scaffolding pipes, = themselves being rapidly overwhelmed by rampant weeds, I cast my eyes on = the tandem.. Even from a distance it clearly wasn't your run-of-the mill = Gitane, Lejeune, Peugeot..no it's lines spoke of elegance, perhaps an = illustrious past.. even of "haute couture". possibly the P-B-P.. I = approached the beauty, no longer proud in its aerosol-can bright orange = livery, sprayed somewhat willy-nilly over frame, headset, stem.... The head tube caught my eye - a refined semi-bi-lam structure with = delicate art-deco lines, then a twin-plate fork crown worthy of a place = in the Eiffel towers lattice-work of girders, from which swept = majestically a pair of fork blades with a curve hand-wrought by a = unknown master-craftsman who had an eye for that elusive functional = elegance.The diagonal strutt of the rear double-diamond was made up of = two smaller diameter tubes cleverly braced together. In spite of all = this evidence of excellent craftsmanship it was the rear drop-outs that = really caught my attention. The rear wheel axle was fixed into a pair of sturdy vertical drop-outs = which, at first glance resembled those perforated track ends made by = Zeus in the late 70/early80s - almost like a pair of the Spanish product = turned through 90 degrees to become perfectly vertical.
By this time my wife was complaining bitterly that we just couldn't get = even another bike in the car let alone a tandem because the last = 400miles of our journey had seen me buy three Gitane and one Lejeune = bikes, and three superb 1950s frames, with yet another Gloria T-d-F- = equipped, Azureen-barred "Super Royal" bike to be collected only 2 miles = further up the road.
The owner of the Depot-Vente hadn't a clue of the make of the tandem; = hadn't even bothered to ask the seller. The price was very modest even = though the tandem was equipped with original Cyclo tandem chainsets and = some rare cantilevers. Reluctantly I climbed back into my already = overloaded break, very disappointed and deflated...but knowing that I = had managed to steal one the seller's trade cards into my back pocket = without my wife seeing me.. and knowing that I am due back down that = same road in less than a month..
I've tried hard to remember the salient points of that tandem frame and = to describe them to the List because I wonder if there is anyone out = there who might just be able to identify that frame. I have reason to = think it might be a Singer because when I got back to my Berrichon = cottage a kindly old neighbour had...But that's another story.. and = first things first .."doucement, doucement" as my French neighbours so = often advise me.
All suggestions extremely welcome.. Who knows, because I just don't need = a tandem, I might just offer it to the List.
Norris Lockley, Settle, wondering just where I put that guy's trade = card!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:04:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Gillies <gillies@cs.ubc.ca> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Reynolds vs. Columbus : Who's lighter ?? Message-ID: <200408272204.PAA23029@cascade.cs.ubc.ca> Precedence: list Message: 11
A silly question of course, because there were so many gauges over the years. However, in the early days, let's say 1970, I believe that fewer choices were available.
In those days, I heard an unconfirmed rumor that a standard Reynolds frame would be little bit lighter than a standard Columbus (SP?) frameset with the same geometry and lugs. therefore, of course, reynolds was supposed to be "better" (no flames, please.) Anyway, can anyone confirm or deny this rumor ??
Also, what's the lighted lugged 531 frameset (531c?) that could ever be had, what is the weight (or a guestimate), for a generic size like 56cm, including frameset and fork (in 531 of course) ?? How much below 6 lbs could it get ??
- Don Gillies San Diego, CA ------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 22:20:42 GMT From: "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Reynolds vs. Columbus : Who's lighter ?? Message-ID: <20040827.152140.9327.443830@webmail19.nyc.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 12
"In those days, I heard an unconfirmed rumor..."
it's more unconfirmed now than ever. i think we should use our
collective hindsight and discuss that it (the "stuff" part) was
mostly-if-not-all myth, or even mythical. there are so many variations
in the products offered to the building trade, so many variables that
are attached to the building process, so many variations in the way so
many builders can design the same size frames...that i'd suggest it's
not possible to narrow in on a brand of steel or steel composition in
order to define a ride quality. more than anything, you "feel" the frame
design and the wheels/components that adorn it. i also think it's
difficult to isolate this as a "heft" issue due to these variables. like
many, i was consumed by the 531 vs columbus thing early on, but finally
concluded that "stuff" was "stuff", and the important component(s)
was/were the design and assembly.
e-RICHIE
chester, ct
A silly question of course, because there were so many gauges over the years. However, in the early days, let's say 1970, I believe that fewer choices were available.
In those days, I heard an unconfirmed rumor that a standard Reynolds frame would be little bit lighter than a standard Columbus (SP?) frameset with the same geometry and lugs. therefore, of course, reynolds was supposed to be "better" (no flames, please.) Anyway, can anyone confirm or deny this rumor ??
Also, what's the lighted lugged 531 frameset (531c?) that could ever be had, what is the weight (or a guestimate), for a generic size like 56cm, including frameset and fork (in 531 of course) ?? How much below 6 lbs could it get ??
- Don Gillies San Diego, CA _______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:15:51 -0700 (PDT) From: r cielec <teaat4p@yahoo.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: RE: [CR]Mixed Tubing Bikes hard to identify Message-ID: <20040827231551.89084.qmail@web52009.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <082720042001.4370.412F92FD0004296D000011122200737478020E000A9C9D0A08@co mcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 13
Mike: Do you recall the tubing guages? Gauge is among the specs I hoped my inquiry would evoke. Regards, Richard Cielec Chicago, Illinois
hersefan@comcast.net wrote: It is a fun idea to try to identify tubing and resulting ride characteristics, but it is very tricky. The problem is that builders often think of tubing in terms of guage instead of model designation. Thus a frame with Reynolds 531 but with a couple of Columbus tubes - well what guage Columbus tubes were used? The main issue is that tube guage and butting profiles (and shape of chainstays) are significant, but brand of tubing is virtually irrelevent - by and large, steel is steel. Now, it would be a great project to identify ride charactersics and tube guage, but it is very difficult to find frames with identical geometry and known differences in tube guage (I bet some list members know some examples though!) In the one case where I did make a comparison, I had three identical Waterford frames except I ordered different tube guages for downtube and chainstays. The differences, especially when heavy chainstays were used, were very easy to feel when riding. Mike Kone in Boulder CO
> Richard Cielec wrote, in part:
> >>>>I am generally aware that bicycles were constructed of mixed
tubing
> to acheive particular ride characteristics. And, some of these "mixed"
> bicycles offer excellent rides.
> May I ask those who know the tubing mix of their bikes if they would
> offer comment - what tubes, year, make, model of bike, how the bike
> rides, etc..?<<<<
>
> I have a copy of the original build sheet for my Stan Pike, which was
> built in '83. Even though the frame sports a Reynolds 531SL red label,
> the frame is made up of various types of tubes, all identified on the
> sheet. The mix is as follows:
>
> Reynolds 531 - top tube, seat tube, head tube
> Super Vitus - down tube, seat and chain stays
> Columbus - forks
>
> I believe it was quite common for builders of the era, particularly
> small-output builders, to mix tubes based on what their vision of the
> frame was. (Or maybe they were just using what was lying around the
> shop.)
>
> My Pike is quite light, considering weight was not a consideration at
> the time. It's built with a mix of various components. Gipiemme/Modolo
> (crankset/seatpost/brakes), N-Rec (shifters/derailleurs), Record
> (hubs/BB), Galli (rims), 3ttt (stem/bars), Edco (headset). I haven't
> really weighed the frame. Maybe someday. It's a great riding bike, one
> of my favorites, but I haven't put thousands of miles on it either.
> I've ridden it with two different wheelsets, the Rec/Galli 15g 32
spoke
> 3x set mentioned above, with UFO tubulars, and with Rec/Sun 15/16g
> butted 32 spoke 2x front 3x rear with Michelin somethingorothers.
> However, the wheelset probably has more to do with the "feel" of a
bike
> than the tubes used. At least IMO.
>
> Wayne Bingham
> Montevideo Uruguay (temporarily)
> _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
--------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:56:08 EDT From: Jon3084@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Inch pitch chain source wanted Message-ID: <9e.130aace1.2e612418@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 14
Guys and Gals,
I'm in need of an inch pitch roller or block chain. Does anyone know any
sources of one?
Thanks in advance, Jonathan Greene Oviedo "Hurricane" FL
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 20:21:50 -0400 From: Thomas E Ward <tom.ward@juno.com> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Ephgrave matters Message-ID: <20040827.202232.-380743.5.tom.ward@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 15
Hilary Stone wrote:
Campagnolo ends were definitely available in the UK in 1953 - in the Thanet records a Silverlight is recorded as having been built with them that year - and I have a copy of the 1952 unnumbered Campy catalogue which has the Holdsworthy stamp on it. But the critical bit is the number 1929 - Ephgrave numbers were simple sequential ones and this number is without doubt from 1952/3 - there are enough recorded dates with numbers of Ephgraves to be very certain. However it would be interesting to know more about the Campy ends fitted to this Ephgrave - as I understand it, the early Campy ends used a smaller adjuster screw and I am not sure when this was dropped. But (and I think this is a big but) I think it unlikely (though possible) that somebody would have had Campy ends originally fitted to a frame with a Simplex double roller which was really rather specific in its use. I think it more likely that the Campy ends were a replacement when subsequently somebody wanted to use a Campy rear mech. Tom - does the frame have a lever braze-on? If so Simplex or Campy?
(snip)
I'm grateful that this has generated some interest and I for one am getting a lot out of it--hope some of the rest of you are, too.
The answer to Hilary's inquiry is that the frame has brazeons to fit Campagnolo shift levers--a pair of them. Wish there were some "before" photos to be had of the frame before respray. Don't forget to take some before undertaking your projects, it will help our heirs in coming decades . . . .
I wish I could give you a good view of the frame-ends, for the sake of speculation. The dropouts seem ever-so-slightly spindlier as compared with two circa 1970 frames here, with the top (especially) of the triangular cut-out being slightly more pointed--the other bikes have the inner corners a bit more rounded out, may be fractionally thicker. Filework could account for that, yet at the same time, the Ephgrave dropouts don't seem to have been filed much, as there is still a bit of a "seam" (line from the mold) on the inner edge of the base of the triangle (the "cut-out"). There is also a bit of a curve to the leading edge of the dropout, where the other two bikes (a Razesa with '71-ish NR parts, and a '68-ish Bottecchia) seem flatter in the same spot. The adjuster screws are 27mm long (overall), which is much shorter than those on my other bikes, which seem to be closer to 4cm--but any or all may have been replaced.I don't have the needed depth of experience with '50s Campagnolo components and dropouts in particular, but instinct tells me the dropouts on the Ephgrave may have come from minutely different castings, whereas the other two bikes have dropouts that more closely duplicate each other (aside from that rather raw Bottecchia joinery at the stays). I would not assert that too strongly, however, and will remain curious to hear further thoughts. Some of you have probably scrutinised a lot of dropouts from different eras and may know a distinguishing detail to look for.
Here's something I find odd: there are two chainstay brazeons--cable housing stops in line with each other. The weird one is 6.5cm rearward from the aforementioned double roller guide. One wouldn't think there be any cable housing involved in that spot, as any housing would be between the roller cable guides and the brazeon. Seems a little bizarre.
Seen that anywhere before, anyone?
Thanks,
Tom Ward New York City ------------------------------
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End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 20, Issue 93 *************************************************