--- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
wrote:
> snipped:
> "Somethimes a framebuilder is judged unfairly
> by some who've only seen the "oops!"
>
>
> well i guess that says it all, doesn't it.
> your text is very interesting reading, but
> at the core of this thread, isn't this (above,
> your words) really what the issue is; people
> judging other people's work, whether qualified
> to do so or not?
> e-RICHIE
> chester, ct
> "there's room on my flaw for you".
Richard,
You may think I've given you a juicy T-bone to chew
on, and so enjoy it while you can, but, when I wrote
the "oops!" I meant screw-ups in the shop that
co-workers or customers could be aware of, "oops!"
that would either be scrapped or fixed BEFORE it went
out the door. And I'll even swear to God, The Devil,
and Albert Eisentraut again on that count. Find
another bone below to chew on.
Joe Starck,
masidon, wi
>
>
>
> -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- brucerobbins <brucerobbins@supanet.com> wrote:
>
> >...The Joe
> > Starcks of this world never seem to get it that
> > there is no charm in
> > perfection. Certainly, one can appreciate his
> > pain-staking attention to
> > detail and if you're a bit anal about these things
> > then that's no doubt what
> > will turn you on.
>
>
> Bruce,
> "Anal" is not synonomous with "perfection." "Anal is
> derisive. It connotes a disorder. It pathologizes
> what
> is, in fact, a virtue. Perfectionism is a virtue.
> It's
> creative; it's procreative. It conserves; it
> preserves. It ensures; it endures. It protects. It's
> all that and more. It is a learned, guiding pursuit.
> Perfectionism reigns supreme in Science, Art and
> Craft. It's been around since, at least, gee whiz,
> the
> beginning of civilization.
>
>
> >I'm glad to say that I'm one of
> > those he denigrates as
> > misguided for thinking that it's nice to see the
> > hand or file of an artisan
> > in his work.
>
>
> As Curt Goodrich stated, "...a trained eye can see
> file use even with the lack of file marks."
>
>
> > His comment that "File marks are marks of laziness
> > and a measure of the
> > maker's craftsmanship integrity" is an insult to
> > generations of builders.
>
>
> And a deserved insult it is, Bruce. A comment I made
> with some other comments of mine that you called "a
> lot of pompous crap."
>
>
> Here's some REAL pomposity from David Cooper:
>
>
> "Hi Dennis(Young),
> Thanks for your remarks about understanding the
> context and historical evolution of craftsmanship. I
> think you are correct in your insight that we live
> in
> a time that allows, and sometimes even demands, a
> higher level of finish from craftsmen than was
> possible in earlier times."
>
>
> And here's the original pomposity from Dennis Young
> that Cooper and you, Robbins, agreed with:
>
>
> "...You are talking about a different era of bicycle
> making when those Masis had the remnants of file
> work
> on them. People had a different mind about what
> they
> were doing then, and the expectations of the
> customers
> were different as well. Not that I would suggest it,
> but thinking otherwise suggests a lack of
> understanding of bicycle history, and aesthetics
> evolution."
>
>
> Young and Cooper, with their stock phrasings, are
> swimming in the clouds. Looky here, for how long
> have
> people, from all cultures and continents, for the
> past
> hundreds and thousands of years, been makin' things?
> Some old stuff is in museum buildings, some old
> stuff
> is in homes; some old stuff is the buildings and the
> homes. The stuff's everywhere, inside and out. How
> 'bout just the last century or half-century, in
> Europe
> and the U.S.? A sense of quality and checkin' for
> flaws is instinctual. Let's take a very, very brief
> tour of things made: If we all went into a shop and
> I
> saw a box, a thing to hold things, and I liked it
> because of the material or the design or whatever,
> I'd
> say "I like this, and you see this, this and this,
> some may consider them flaws but they don't bother
> me,
> and besides, they're away from the good parts."
> (It's
> a $50 box.) But if the lid came down uneven, it'd be
> a
> problem, and I'd have to decide if I could fix it or
> not. My sister made a little clay rocker chair many
> years ago. In one sense it looks hand-made by a
> child,
> flaws and all, but in another sense, because it has
> a
> sort of haunting character about it, it looks as if
> it
> coulda been make intentionally that way, like by
> Georgia O'Keefe maybe. I made a decorative box with
> two drawers 30 years ago that hangs on my parent's
> wall; it's not perfect(it's pretty good though!),
> but
> it's very charming. The Brookly Bridge is very
> charming too, but it's also a perfect work of art.
> If
> my tailor makes me a suit with a too-tight armhole,
> or
> even just a noticeably crooked seam elsewhere: not
> charming. A panel on an automobile a bit off?: not
> charming. Dentists are craftspeople.
>
> "Hey Doc, it's been a few weeks and that filling
> feels
> a bit rough against my tongue."
>
> "Joe, let me show you my rug with the knot that
> looks
> like a flaw."
>
> "Huh?"
>
> "OK, let me try this Joe, this is a story about
> Wabi-Sabi..."
>
> "Huh? My tooth..."
>
> The dental assistant whispers, "Now Joe, who are you
> to judge the Doctor? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk."
>
> "Now Joe, You don't know it yet, but I've given you
> the gift of contemplation. Live and love. Life is
> short. That's a good man. Sayonara and Ta Ta..."
>
>
> OK now, let's go back to an awareness of things
> made,
> throughout history, throughout the last century,
> throughout the last half-century, a historical
> awareness of the transactions between buyers and
> sellers of things made, transactions guided by an
> eye
> for quality by the buyer, and hopefully, by the
> seller. Against this whole backdrop of the history
> of
> industrial arts, especially the last half-century,
> somehow makers of bicycle frames in the 60s, 70s,
> even
> the 80s, had been kept in the dark about the way
> things ought to be made? During the three decades in
> the century in which we listees have lived shoddy
> workmanship on relatively expensive bicycle frames
> is
> to be excused? There is no excuse. I'm not at all
> applying perfectionist custom-framebuider standards
> to
> these frames. All of these frames I'm thinking of,
> certainly those mentioned in this thread and many
> other makes, could have been made so much better
> with
> just a little extra effort. The maker's chose not
> to.
> These maker's claims only weakly carried through to
> the frames made. They rapped "Old-World
> craftsmanship
> and tradition" and "Made as perfect as possible
> under
> the exacting eye of the Maestro" and other pompous
> "Maestro" crap like that and yet on too many of
> these
> frames there's little evidence of a "Maestro";
> there's
> little evidence of mastery of metalwork. THE ERA OF
> FLIM-FLAMMERY. There's your historical context. I
> speak from solid ground, from experience, not from
> castles in the clouds, not from speculation. Is THE
> ERA over? Probably not. You can always glom onto the
> culture of a frame's origin of manufacture, slice it
> and dice it, subvert it and pervert it, and these
> days, sneak a nice eastern philosophy or two in,
> work
> yer blather up to a lather.
>
>
> >...In my opinion, Joe Starck's work is sterile
> > and soul-less
>
>
> In a sense, there really isn't anything completely
> called "Joe Starck's work." But I'll touch on it a
> bit; I'll say a few words about was is my "work."
>
> I did 20 years total of framebuilding work for
> Trek('79-'82), Masi('84-'90), Dave Moulton(at two
> different periods in the mid-eighties totaling about
> a
> year or so), Bill Holland('91-'98), and my last four
> years as a framebuilder making Rivendells('98-'02),
> as
> well as some Hollands during these last four years.
> And then there's all the repairs and modifications
> over these two decades. So Bruce, are you dissing me
> or the companies I worked for? I made some very nice
> lugged and fillet-brazed frames for Holland, as well
> as fillet-brazed tandems with fully internal brake
> and
> cable guides, guides that were well planned and
> executed with nary a rattle and smooth as silk. And
> I'm proud of the Rivendells I made. For Rivendell
> and
> Holland, I wasn't at liberty to put the hours into a
> frame necessary to do some of the lug carvings
> listees
> have seen from some of the fancier builders. I
> wasn't
> giving my time away and neither were my employers.
> The
> one ulta-refined Nervex-lugged 753 frame I built for
> Holland; I'm sure he lost money on it. I did some
> fancy stuff for Rivendell, but often it was, "Put an
> extra $100 or $200 worth into this one." And so the
> frame got what I got, but 9 out of 10 got more than
> I
> got. I couple I'd like to do over. But with a lug
> that
> already begins ultra-fancy, it's a challenge in
> itself
> to add to it. Some of the extras on Rivendells I
> did,
> for the money, were the best solution; I added bits
> of
> me to Riv's that resulted in some mighty fine
> gestalts. Fanciness aside, my work is evident of
> perfectionism, and I'm proud of it. Of course, I've
> had my fair share of screw-ups, and I've had
> problems
> that weren't my fault. I often think it'd be a kick
> to
> swap screw-up stories with some framebuilders that I
> might be in harmony with. Somethimes a framebuilder
> is
> judged unfairly by some who've only seen the "oops!"
> Methods I've used in the past I no longer use. I
> evolved by association and wit and Holland and
> Rivendell sure as hell got my best. I think my whole
> body of work, the depth and breadth of it, is
> impressive. I don't feel my work is "sterile and
> soul-less;" it's alive and as soul-full as can be.
> This is why: When a perfectionist makes a custom
> frame, he has to be at full attention; a
> mis-measurement here or there and he's screwed. Do
> you
> know how painful and expensive it is to realize
> you've
> made just one error? And so the builder has to be
> "on"
> frame after frame after frame. At any stage in the
> process, especially double and triple-checking the
> plans, cutting tubes, brazing, inspecting and
> finishing, my whole being is in a moment without
> time.
> Brazing can be a kick sometimes. I've done so much
> of
> it that often I can begin a lug, get deep into
> thought
> about something, and finish the lug without
> seemingly
> having to have used one brain cell during the
> brazing
> process. Did I just braze that lug? On to the next
> lug/thought. When I'm finishing a frame, I'm both
> working on it and admiring it. I've made frames to
> the
> best of my ability, and you know, I didn't do it for
> myself; I did it for the frames. Where is my work
> now?
>
>
> And when I inspect another builder's work from all
> angles, preferably in bare metal, when I take it all
> in, if that frame hits a certain mark of perfection,
> I'm moved -- A chill goes up my spine -- That's
> sorta
> like one soul saluting another.
>
> Joe Starck,
> masidon, wi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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