I don't believe in god or the devil, and I've never met Mr Eisentraut. But I've spoken with him on the phone a few times and I'm pretty sure we're all much happier not knowing what Albert thinks of us!
On Jan 31, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Joe Starck wrote:
>
> --- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> too late...
>> you said it.
>> it's "out there"!!!!
>
>
> And now that I re-read my post, I do recall thinking,
> as I wrote, of a couple of goofs that did get shipped.
> What will God, The Devil, and Albert Eisentraut think
> of me now?
> Joe Starck,
> masidon, wi
>
>>
>> -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> --- "richardsachs@juno.com" <richardsachs@juno.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> snipped:
>>> "Somethimes a framebuilder is judged unfairly
>>> by some who've only seen the "oops!"
>>>
>>>
>>> well i guess that says it all, doesn't it.
>>> your text is very interesting reading, but
>>> at the core of this thread, isn't this (above,
>>> your words) really what the issue is; people
>>> judging other people's work, whether qualified
>>> to do so or not?
>>> e-RICHIE
>>> chester, ct
>>> "there's room on my flaw for you".
>>
>>
>> Richard,
>> You may think I've given you a juicy T-bone to chew
>> on, and so enjoy it while you can, but, when I wrote
>> the "oops!" I meant screw-ups in the shop that
>> co-workers or customers could be aware of, "oops!"
>> that would either be scrapped or fixed BEFORE it
>> went
>> out the door. And I'll even swear to God, The Devil,
>> and Albert Eisentraut again on that count. Find
>> another bone below to chew on.
>> Joe Starck,
>> masidon, wi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> --- brucerobbins <brucerobbins@supanet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...The Joe
>>>> Starcks of this world never seem to get it that
>>>> there is no charm in
>>>> perfection. Certainly, one can appreciate his
>>>> pain-staking attention to
>>>> detail and if you're a bit anal about these
>> things
>>>> then that's no doubt what
>>>> will turn you on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce,
>>> "Anal" is not synonomous with "perfection." "Anal
>> is
>>> derisive. It connotes a disorder. It pathologizes
>>> what
>>> is, in fact, a virtue. Perfectionism is a virtue.
>>> It's
>>> creative; it's procreative. It conserves; it
>>> preserves. It ensures; it endures. It protects.
>> It's
>>> all that and more. It is a learned, guiding
>> pursuit.
>>> Perfectionism reigns supreme in Science, Art and
>>> Craft. It's been around since, at least, gee whiz,
>>> the
>>> beginning of civilization.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm glad to say that I'm one of
>>>> those he denigrates as
>>>> misguided for thinking that it's nice to see the
>>>> hand or file of an artisan
>>>> in his work.
>>>
>>>
>>> As Curt Goodrich stated, "...a trained eye can see
>>> file use even with the lack of file marks."
>>>
>>>
>>>> His comment that "File marks are marks of
>> laziness
>>>> and a measure of the
>>>> maker's craftsmanship integrity" is an insult to
>>>> generations of builders.
>>>
>>>
>>> And a deserved insult it is, Bruce. A comment I
>> made
>>> with some other comments of mine that you called
>> "a
>>> lot of pompous crap."
>>>
>>>
>>> Here's some REAL pomposity from David Cooper:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Hi Dennis(Young),
>>> Thanks for your remarks about understanding the
>>> context and historical evolution of craftsmanship.
>> I
>>> think you are correct in your insight that we
>> live
>>> in
>>> a time that allows, and sometimes even demands, a
>>> higher level of finish from craftsmen than was
>>> possible in earlier times."
>>>
>>>
>>> And here's the original pomposity from Dennis
>> Young
>>> that Cooper and you, Robbins, agreed with:
>>>
>>>
>>> "...You are talking about a different era of
>> bicycle
>>> making when those Masis had the remnants of file
>>> work
>>> on them. People had a different mind about what
>>> they
>>> were doing then, and the expectations of the
>>> customers
>>> were different as well. Not that I would suggest
>> it,
>>> but thinking otherwise suggests a lack of
>>> understanding of bicycle history, and aesthetics
>>> evolution."
>>>
>>>
>>> Young and Cooper, with their stock phrasings, are
>>> swimming in the clouds. Looky here, for how long
>>> have
>>> people, from all cultures and continents, for the
>>> past
>>> hundreds and thousands of years, been makin'
>> things?
>>> Some old stuff is in museum buildings, some old
>>> stuff
>>> is in homes; some old stuff is the buildings and
>> the
>>> homes. The stuff's everywhere, inside and out. How
>>> 'bout just the last century or half-century, in
>>> Europe
>>> and the U.S.? A sense of quality and checkin' for
>>> flaws is instinctual. Let's take a very, very
>> brief
>>> tour of things made: If we all went into a shop
>> and
>>> I
>>> saw a box, a thing to hold things, and I liked it
>>> because of the material or the design or whatever,
>>> I'd
>>> say "I like this, and you see this, this and this,
>>> some may consider them flaws but they don't bother
>>> me,
>>> and besides, they're away from the good parts."
>>> (It's
>>> a $50 box.) But if the lid came down uneven, it'd
>> be
>>> a
>>> problem, and I'd have to decide if I could fix it
>> or
>>> not. My sister made a little clay rocker chair
>> many
>>> years ago. In one sense it looks hand-made by a
>>> child,
>>> flaws and all, but in another sense, because it
>> has
>>> a
>>> sort of haunting character about it, it looks as
>> if
>>> it
>>> coulda been make intentionally that way, like by
>>> Georgia O'Keefe maybe. I made a decorative box
>> with
>>> two drawers 30 years ago that hangs on my parent's
>>> wall; it's not perfect(it's pretty good though!),
>>> but
>>> it's very charming. The Brookly Bridge is very
>>> charming too, but it's also a perfect work of art.
>>> If
>>> my tailor makes me a suit with a too-tight
>> armhole,
>>> or
>>> even just a noticeably crooked seam elsewhere: not
>>> charming. A panel on an automobile a bit off?: not
>>> charming. Dentists are craftspeople.
>>>
>>> "Hey Doc, it's been a few weeks and that filling
>>> feels
>>> a bit rough against my tongue."
>>>
>>> "Joe, let me show you my rug with the knot that
>>> looks
>>> like a flaw."
>>>
>>> "Huh?"
>>>
>>> "OK, let me try this Joe, this is a story about
>>> Wabi-Sabi..."
>>>
>>> "Huh? My tooth..."
>>>
>>> The dental assistant whispers, "Now Joe, who are
>> you
>>> to judge the Doctor? Tsk. Tsk. Tsk."
>>>
>>> "Now Joe, You don't know it yet, but I've given
>> you
>>> the gift of contemplation. Live and love. Life is
>>> short. That's a good man. Sayonara and Ta Ta..."
>>>
>>>
>>> OK now, let's go back to an awareness of things
>>> made,
>>> throughout history, throughout the last century,
>>> throughout the last half-century, a historical
>>> awareness of the transactions between buyers and
>>> sellers of things made, transactions guided by an
>>> eye
>>> for quality by the buyer, and hopefully, by the
>>> seller. Against this whole backdrop of the history
>>> of
>>> industrial arts, especially the last half-century,
>>> somehow makers of bicycle frames in the 60s, 70s,
>>> even
>>> the 80s, had been kept in the dark about the way
>>> things ought to be made? During the three decades
>> in
>>> the century in which we listees have lived shoddy
>>> workmanship on relatively expensive bicycle frames
>>> is
>>> to be excused? There is no excuse. I'm not at all
>>> applying perfectionist custom-framebuider
>> standards
>>> to
>>> these frames. All of these frames I'm thinking of,
>>> certainly those mentioned in this thread and many
>>> other makes, could have been made so much better
>>> with
>>> just a little extra effort. The maker's chose not
>>> to.
>>> These maker's claims only weakly carried through
>> to
>>> the frames made. They rapped "Old-World
>>> craftsmanship
>>> and tradition" and "Made as perfect as possible
>>> under
>>> the exacting eye of the Maestro" and other pompous
>>> "Maestro" crap like that and yet on too many of
>>> these
>>> frames there's little evidence of a "Maestro";
>>> there's
>>> little evidence of mastery of metalwork. THE ERA
>> OF
>>> FLIM-FLAMMERY. There's your historical context. I
>>> speak from solid ground, from experience, not from
>>> castles in the clouds, not from speculation. Is
>> THE
>>> ERA over? Probably not. You can always glom onto
>> the
>>> culture of a frame's origin of manufacture, slice
>> it
>>> and dice it, subvert it and pervert it, and these
>>> days, sneak a nice eastern philosophy or two in,
>>> work
>>> yer blather up to a lather.
>>>
>>>
>>>> ...In my opinion, Joe Starck's work is sterile
>>>> and soul-less
>>>
>>>
>>> In a sense, there really isn't anything completely
>>> called "Joe Starck's work." But I'll touch on it a
>>> bit; I'll say a few words about was is my "work."
>>>
>>> I did 20 years total of framebuilding work for
>>> Trek('79-'82), Masi('84-'90), Dave Moulton(at two
>>> different periods in the mid-eighties totaling
>> about
>>> a
>>> year or so), Bill Holland('91-'98), and my last
>> four
>>> years as a framebuilder making
>> Rivendells('98-'02),
>>> as
>>> well as some Hollands during these last four
>> years.
>>> And then there's all the repairs and modifications
>>> over these two decades. So Bruce, are you dissing
>> me
>>> or the companies I worked for? I made some very
>> nice
>>> lugged and fillet-brazed frames for Holland, as
>> well
>>> as fillet-brazed tandems with fully internal brake
>>> and
>>> cable guides, guides that were well planned and
>>> executed with nary a rattle and smooth as silk.
>> And
>>> I'm proud of the Rivendells I made. For Rivendell
>>> and
>>> Holland, I wasn't at liberty to put the hours into
>> a
>>> frame necessary to do some of the lug carvings
>>> listees
>>> have seen from some of the fancier builders. I
>>> wasn't
>>> giving my time away and neither were my employers.
>>> The
>>> one ulta-refined Nervex-lugged 753 frame I built
>> for
>>> Holland; I'm sure he lost money on it. I did some
>>> fancy stuff for Rivendell, but often it was, "Put
>> an
>>> extra $100 or $200 worth into this one." And so
>> the
>>> frame got what I got, but 9 out of 10 got more
>> than
>>> I
>>> got. I couple I'd like to do over. But with a lug
>>> that
>>> already begins ultra-fancy, it's a challenge in
>>> itself
>>> to add to it. Some of the extras on Rivendells I
>>> did,
>>> for the money, were the best solution; I added
>> bits
>>> of
>>> me to Riv's that resulted in some mighty fine
>>> gestalts. Fanciness aside, my work is evident of
>>> perfectionism, and I'm proud of it. Of course,
>> I've
>>> had my fair share of screw-ups, and I've had
>>> problems
>>> that weren't my fault. I often think it'd be a
>> kick
>>> to
>>> swap screw-up stories with some framebuilders that
>> I
>>> might be in harmony with. Somethimes a
>> framebuilder
>>> is
>>> judged unfairly by some who've only seen the
>> "oops!"
>>> Methods I've used in the past I no longer use. I
>>> evolved by association and wit and Holland and
>>> Rivendell sure as hell got my best. I think my
>> whole
>>> body of work, the depth and breadth of it, is
>>> impressive. I don't feel my work is "sterile and
>>> soul-less;" it's alive and as soul-full as can be.
>>> This is why: When a perfectionist makes a custom
>>> frame, he has to be at full attention; a
>>> mis-measurement here or there and he's screwed. Do
>>> you
>>> know how painful and expensive it is to realize
>>> you've
>>> made just one error? And so the builder has to be
>>> "on"
>>> frame after frame after frame. At any stage in the
>>> process, especially double and triple-checking the
>>> plans, cutting tubes, brazing, inspecting and
>>> finishing, my whole being is in a moment without
>>> time.
>>> Brazing can be a kick sometimes. I've done so much
>>> of
>>> it that often I can begin a lug, get deep into
>>> thought
>>> about something, and finish the lug without
>>> seemingly
>>> having to have used one brain cell during the
>>> brazing
>>> process. Did I just braze that lug? On to the next
>>> lug/thought. When I'm finishing a frame, I'm both
>>> working on it and admiring it. I've made frames to
>>> the
>>> best of my ability, and you know, I didn't do it
>> for
>>> myself; I did it for the frames. Where is my work
>>> now?
>>>
>>>
>>> And when I inspect another builder's work from all
>>> angles, preferably in bare metal, when I take it
>> all
>>> in, if that frame hits a certain mark of
>> perfection,
>>> I'm moved -- A chill goes up my spine -- That's
>>> sorta
>>> like one soul saluting another.
>>>
>>> Joe Starck,
>>> masidon, wi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Gene Powell
Rad Finishes
Portland, OR
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