From: Louis Schulman <louiss@gate.net> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:25:40 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [CR]Ebay outing: Re-listing of Baylis
<< This is a very beautiful bicycle. But, I have to say, after closely scrutinizing the photos, the workmanship is not better than my 1965 Reg Collard-built Holdsworth Italia Strada, or my 1973 Ron Cooper.
I raise this point only because it points out how value relates as much to hype and perception as it does with physical reality. The Holdsworth frame cost me $650 newly restored, and the Cooper was $150 with original finish that could use a little work.
The workmanship of a number of the old British builders was as good as any, and generally much better than the famous Italian builders who are worshipped on this list.
It will be interesting to see how much this bike goes for.
Louis Schulman Tampa, Florida USA>>
Dear Louis:
Hmmmm.
Looking at a photo of a bike on the Internet and making generalisms like that might stir up a debate.
I am a huge devotee of many makes and brands, especially of lovely old fine British steel (which comprises the majority of my collection) but I must caution about making statements which equate apples and oranges. Your old bikes are wonderful but do not jump to any conclusions about the "value" vs a Baylis or a number of other KOF builders (CR listees and not.)
I would love to chat with you and others at the Cirque, either over a beer or at the show, discovering together the fine points of bike frames and noting differences in workmanship and detailing. There are many nuances that do not meet the eye, even to those who have owned and ridden nice bikes. The top builders of today operate in a aesthetic world of refinement that has never been equaled before in all of cycledom.
While (for instance) Ephgrave, Rene Herse, Ron Cooper, (early) Masi have fantastic function and mojo, the "modern masters" sweat the details much more than the old boys did. It really is not fair to compare them because there were no expectations by buyers to have the builders-of-old spend so many hours/days on lug profiling, thinning, and such. Indeed, when you look at the older masters work, using modern standards, they might appear sloppy in some ways, but that is again unfair as they simply were not asked to do that level of anal retentive fiddling.
But here we go again on such threads as "Who values what & why?" and "Are bikes art?" and "Tthe ride is all that counts", " Blond, brunettes or redheads?" etc., etc. Guess that is what makes the world go round!
Dale
Dale Brown
Greensboro, North Carolina USA