Re: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally

(Example: History:Norris Lockley)

From: <"brianbaylis@juno.com">
Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 04:15:17 GMT
To: brandon@ivycycles.com
Subject: Re: What does it really mean. Re: [CR]KOF Tally
cc: Jon3084@aol.com
cc: Jon3084@aol.com

Brandon,

Well put, if anyone wants my opinion. The fact is that the things that really define a classic and traditional handmade bike are very nearly nonexistant in frames built today. The skills required to build an acceptable and worthwhile bike these days are still something; but quite honestly not nearly as much skill as doing everything "the old way" and by hand. Believe it or not, my apprentice and I were discussing the concept of handmade frames this afternoon, and one thing specifically was we both agreed that hand mitering is the only way to really build a custom traditional frame; along with all of the other handworking processes. Carlos was surprised to hear that many new builders tend to set up for machine mitering almost right away. Like shapeing a lug and filing them thin afterwards, I kind of feel hand mitering puts more of the framebuilder into the frame. But hand mitering not maketh a "KOF" (that term BTW annoys the crap out of us guys) either. And there are custom builders out there who boast of being able to miter a full tubeset in 10 minutes. That isn't the spitit of hand building traditional frames that I aspire towards. The old style frame is labour. It's supposed to be. The more gracefully you express the frame the nicer it will look. And yet, looks alone not maketh a KOF either. My opinion is that the entire bicycle is a package deal and the frame is the heart of it. We all know it all has to wort together, fit, and perform at or hopefull well above the expectations of the owner. The builder will only spend the extra time to make a beautiful well balanced and artistic frame if they truely love doing the work and get self satisfaction and pride of craftsmanship from doing it. There is no extra pay for it. It does cost something, but not really as much as it is actually worth if the time were spent in other professions. Bottom line, ya gotta love it!

I also feel that each bike should be at least slightly different from the other bikes one builds. Building most bikes one way and then building something special to show doesn't work for me. I feel each bike the builder makes should show as many of their talents as possible and contain their best work for whatever type of bike they are making. If the concept is clean and simple, an exquesite fillet brazed frame is as much a work of art and ehibition of skill as some fancy gingerbread ornated lugged creation. Everything in between should be done with simular taste and style; harmonious and in balance with the rider and the purpose of the machine. Much of the skill of a good framebuilder is in design, and I mean design and not just copying other bikes or concepts. Yes, it's all been done before in the bike business; but there are always new ways to reinvent it. Grant Peterson is the master so far and he's doing quite well on account of it.

So, my advice is plan to attend the North American Handmade Bicycle Show. Come to learn. Come to see. Come to meet people (some framebuilders are even people too) and find out what really makes us tick and what we're really all about. You will see some old school framebuilding along with every other type of framebuilding that a small outfit can do. Come see what some of the up and comming young guns are up to. I expect you will see a few surprises!

I will be giving a seminar, if I'm not mistaken, at the show. My topic: "The reemergance of the lugged steel frame". There will be samples. There may also be for sale at the show only, a frame that does not have an owner yet; a tradition I plan to start in 2006 and have each year at the framebuilders show. Plan to break the piggy bank.

Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA


-- Brandon Ives wrote:


On Aug 10, 2005, at 5:05 PM, Jon3084@aol.com wrote:
> Sachs (6)
> Baylis (4)
> Kvale (2)
> Nagasawa(2)
> and one each of
> Goodrich,Landshark,Bates,Caygil,Weigle,Hampsten,Strawberry,Kendria,Het
> chens,TiCycles,Mercian,Zaconato.Pegoretti.

How exactly is Ti Cycles a KOF? I like Dave and all, but he and the lads build a large majority tig welded titanium frames. Or Pegoretti for that matter? Does one lugged frame in a line-up make it KOF. If so is De Rosa even though they make the King along with the Primato? And Hampsten too. . . do they even build any of their own frames, or are they contract built by someone else?

This leads me to something I've been meaning to say for a long time. KOF is a bunch of hooey. If you really wanted a KOF frame you would use brass only and standard tube diameters for starters. Lugs do not a "classic" bike make folks. Heck I build what most folks call KOF frames and would love the business that having Keeper Of The Flame attached to my frames would bring, but instead my motto is "Modern Frames, Traditional Techniques" I'll have none of this KOF bull puckey. If the list really is about bikes built before 1984 lets keep the bikes within that time line.

Ok, so if people insist on using this silly title KOF for builders today lets set some base rules. Try these on for size: 1. Lugs do not make it KOF. There were many other joining methods back in the day. 2. Steel doesn't make it KOF. We've already decided that early Kleins, Teledyles, Grafteks, ETC are list worthy. 3. The old builders didn't use oversized tubes, except in rare cases like with some of the French bikes and tandems. 4. Files were used for mitering tubes. The small bike builders of yore didn't use huge mills or much serious tooling for doing their miters or building. 5. blah, blah, blah. . . I could go on but really think people who out there really builds bikes the way they did in the old days. I know a few, but only a few that still build that way.

The frames people revere from the past are quite different from the frames made today and that should be what makes them special. There are many builders building today, but they're not building the same way or the same frames and that to should be OK too. I think we should get back to what this list is about classic lightweight bicycles built before 1984. If you want to talk about cool lugged steel frames built after 1984 that should be a separate list.

Thanks for letting me rant,
Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
Coeur d'Alene, Idaho
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"Sine coffea nihil sum."
--Sarah Vowell--
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