[CR]Charlie's Carpenter and thoughts on the dilemmas of refinishing a classic frame

(Example: Framebuilders:Rene Herse)

Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 10:43:33 -0500
From: "Doug Fattic" <fatticbicycles@qtm.net>
To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>, <chasds@mindspring.com>
Subject: [CR]Charlie's Carpenter and thoughts on the dilemmas of refinishing a classic frame

Charlie wrote that he had won the Carpenter up for auction lately on eBay and apologized to the list for those that didn't get it. I'll gladly accept because that was a frame I would have really liked (a an old fancy lugged British frame with silver brazed lugs) but I got distracted with frame and paint work that I needed to do (and I have to get ready to give the seminar at the Handmade Bike Show about how to paint frames). He also recognized the quandary in refinish options and asked for opinions on what to do. I thought I would give mine to illustrate the dilemmas everyone faces when refinishing a classic frame.

I agree with Phil who suggested looking at the frame in the flesh first before deciding what to do with it. Nothing is lost by waiting to consider all options. A little while ago I got a couple of 50's Ellis Briggs (where I learned framebuilding). My impressions changed quit a bit when I actually held them in my hand compared to my assessment just looking at the eBay pictures. One that I thought was pretty beat up and I would for sure refinish, had old paint detail work and decals (transfers) that shouldn't be destroyed. It's a history lesson on painting lugs a second color and how they did double boxed lining at that time. Briggs painted as well as made frames on the premises. The other one that looked good enough to leave alone in pictures proved to be a crude recent respray which I will have no qualms redoing. I would never have been able to make the proper decision without seeing them first.

A third option is to partially repaint it (like I will do on the 1st Briggs), leaving decals and seat stay strips mostly as they are but redoing paint in, say, the rear triangle and then giving the whole frame a protective new clear coat.

Some have suggested that since it might already have been resprayed once, it is fair game to redo the whole thing. I might argue that even if the bike was made in the 50's and repainted in the 60's, that is a historical paint job representing the 60's. Are you wanting to preserve history or do you want it to look good, and if so, how good? Because their will always be tension between what's possible and what was.

One of the challenges of redoing a classic frame is that we can do a much better job now than what was possible back then. It raises the question of how much less than what it can be made to look now do you want it to look to be "fake authentic"? Half as good?, three quarters as good? Old stove enamels aren't available anymore and the old finish can't be exactly replicated. I remember Bill and Rodney (Brigg's painters) in 1975 complaining that English environmental regulations preventing using some old paints as well as certain pigments weren't available anymore either. My latest Iwata and Sata spray guns are so much better than the guns we used at Ellis Briggs in 1975. They can put out a more precise spray pattern with finer atomization that the always present problems of overspray (where the newer paint pattern hits the slightly older pattern which is starting to harden and results in a rougher surface) are vastly reduced. Furthermore paint itself is constantly being refined for looks, ease of application, durability, etc. Just lately I painted a new new House of Kolor Kameleon green to blue pearl that is just stunning. Briggs didn't have anything available like that in paint storage when I was there (nor in my own cabinet a couple of years ago). It does give me pause that I paid $350 for 2 oz of the stuff. Even if you desire to avoid the cool modern stuff, I can still put on a glossy smooth clear coat that just couldn't be done back then and bury the decals so they look like they are under glass. This is the standard of today and what your refinished Carpenter will be compared to. This contrast in age related quality raises the intriguing question of how crappy to you want your frame to be compared to what it can be just to look more authentic, when it is the beauty (the fancy lugs) that attracted you to it in the first place? Can less beauty poorer quality make you more happy?

My options would be to either leave it alone, minimally redo it with as little disturbance to the original as possible or go whole hog and make it as wonderful as modern skill and paint allow highlighting the beauty of the fancy lugs. In other words, if your going to change it, why put an okay finish on it when wow is possible? I am curious how you answered the questions John asked about what are you going to do with it, ride or look?

And now let me over generalize the differences between refinishing in the States or repraying in England. The culture of the British is to put more of an emphasis on "value" where Americans want and are willing to pay for top "quality". Those characteristics make the final result a bit different.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan