Re: [CR]frame builders et al

(Example: Framebuilders:Alex Singer)

Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 09:31:46 -0800
Subject: Re: [CR]frame builders et al
To: Dennis Young <mail@woodworkingboy.com>
From: "Brandon Ives" <brandon@ivycycles.com>
In-Reply-To: <EF2DC992-849D-48B4-AB26-186E8E37C8DB@woodworkingboy.com>
cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org

On Friday, Mar 10, 2006, at 06:22 US/Pacific, Dennis Young wrote:
> I'm curious to read how many customers annually is required to make an
> individual high end frame maker happy, wealthy, and wise? Saying that
> the market is small may be true, say compared to luxury yachts or
> something, but I think all you need is to have the next customer lined
> up to consider that you are going in the right direction.

A few years back when I was developing the Ivy Cycles business and financial plan I asked on the framebuilders list and talked extensively to about a dozen builders. My plan was to create a sustainable business without the usual up and down problems. I've found the magical number to be 35 for the one man shop. Many long time builders seem to build in the 50 on average, but have also seen quite a few years of 25 or less. The newbie builders are generally in the 15-20 range. It seems to be that the average frame and fork price out the door is about $1250. Wait lists are also usually in the 5-7 week range for 90% of builders. Most builders have something else going on beyond building to keep a roof over their head. In general everybody seems happy to be doing the business they do. Everybody wishes they made more more, but that's the truth in all occupations. One of the interesting notes is that ALL the builders that have been building for 20+ years I've talked to think it's crazy for a newbie to do build for a living.

Right now we're at the zenith of American framebuilding and no where else in the world even comes close to the quality and quantity happening in the U.S. in my mind. I also see folks talking about the same half-dozen builders over and over. In the U.S. there are at least 100 builders that can, and do, build in a pre-1983 style if you want it. There are also a ton of builders who's thoughts and ideas behind their bikes is quite "classical" but build using modern materials and techniques. Builders like Matt Chester who's ideas of how a bike should ride go back to before WWII he just does it with tig welding and titanium.

People keep talking about all the builders who didn't make it. Well how about all the guys who DO make it and nobody has said anything. I've been trying to find pics of my buddy Jeff Lyon online and in all the galleries there are 6 total, and 4 of them are all his cool front rack. This is a guy who's been building for 30+ years and does so quietly in Grant Pass, Oregon. I know his waiting list isn't 2 years long and frame prices are quite reasonable. When was Glenn Erickson's name dropped on this list? 15 years ago Glenn was one of the very few builders doing truly custom lug carving. There are so many builders that work quietly in the background and build what they build. There's also a bunch of rising stars that do stellar work like Tom Oswald and Sacha White. When I look at their work it makes me hang my head and smile at the same time. It's not the kind of stuff I'm interested in building but I'm really glad someone is doing it. So the moral of the story is branch out and look deeper than the same guys that keep getting talked about because for every guy at the forefront is a dozen in the shadows. best, Brandon"monkeyman"Ives heading out for a ride in the fresh snow in Vancouver, B.C.