I hate cars! Sorry I had to use them as an example to grab your attention, suppose I could have shouted "Oil Up" an everyday British cycling club warning but you might not know the meaning. No put down intended. Now onto bikes and the ludicrous suggestion of bringing Raleigh, Hercules (Oh Vey!) BSA and Dayton into the debate. These three have nothing to do with our Club lightweight bikes I think the posting thread was about lightweight's and size of makers? You can't compare a dropped bar Hercules with a GA ( big pre-war lightweight builder). A model "T" has pedals and steering wheel but would you honestly compare it with a Packard? The only thing they have in common is they both got America moving by car. The Ford for the masses, cheap and cheerful just like the Hercules did for our masses and the Packard for the top end, the same as GA, Butler, Grubb etc. Now I don't subscribe to this North South thing, people are people where ever they are. Me I am British red white and blue through and through and proud of it, England thats Richard the third to me. Sorry getting of the beaten track here. As I am British and come from London I will use my home city's makers as an example. I do hope someone from north of Watford on the list can supply the equivalent in Northern lightweight makers as they are very many of if not of beter quality. Right the 1920's it has got to be Selbach, Saxon, Buckley, Bertrand and Grubb. There was a wonderful term used by the clubmen in the 20's it's a "Racing Roadster Model" this would be a more accurate description when talking of Hercules and Raleigh with drops. This expression was commonplace then and what we call taking the piss nowadays. One manufacture even jumped on the band wagon and sold a model called a Racing Roadster Model, this was the "Smithfield" The cycle that stands on its name. Now the 30's and onto Claud's The King of Lightweights. This wondeful lightweight firm first gets a mention in The Southern Wheelers 1925 club minutes when they ask him by letter to advertise in their club rule book. This is the club that our own CR Doug Smith rode for and did some very quick times for. Back to the 1925 Southern Wheelers rule book they also contacted Maurice Selbach and F.H.Grubb, why because these were the top London handbuilders of lightweight cycles of the time. All of these had large column inches of advertising in our cycling journals. Advertising has never been cheap in our journals and in those years even dearer so you can see they had loads of money and were big hitters in the lightweight trade. Now my Father-in Law knew Bill Grey and I met him a few times and its a shame they are no longer around to ask, but by talking to them both and my Dad, Clauds were massive, don't forget they were trade builders as well for numerous small concerns who used them to build their branded lightweights. His 38/39 catalogue has 33 seperate models YEAH REALLY SMALL and the trade stuff on top? One of the great things about Claud was his genorisity and helpfulness, this was particularly shown in his help that he gave to riders. Lillian Dredge, Margueritte Wilson, The Horn Brothers especially Dennis they even named a model after him the "DSH Championship Path", they couldn't use his name because he was an amateur, Toni Merkens, Harry Grant both these rode for other makers in their specialists events but Mr. Butler was very crafty and he got around it by letting them ride his bikes in other track displines. So Grant the famous pacer who rode Selbachs and ROH would ride a Butler in a pursuit, Merkens a Hetchins sprinter would ride a Butler in a motor paced event. I might not be 100% accurate on this as I heard this in a pub in the 60's from Charlie Bowtle and I was probably half pissed at the time but this is how they got round the contracts. There are publicity pictures of both Grant and Merkens on Butler's. Reg Harris was another famous Claud Butler rider pre-war in 1939. So you can see by the money he was splashing about and the publicity he was getting he sold many frames and bikes. How on earth would you bracket Butlers in the small lightweight makers class? This is how small he was. Every year from about 1934 onwards he use to throw "CLAUDS DO" this was a New Years Eve Party & Dance which was normally held at a very small venue in London called "New Horticultural Hall " Westminster. Are you kidding you could get 5000 in there easily and stil have room for more! My Father-in Law use to regulary attend and this was for clubmen and women who owned Clauds or were potential customers. This was not a trade jolly. Now I can't prove any of this and I can only tell you how I heard it from riding, dancing and socialising with these clubmen over the many years I have ben riding. I still hear the tales about how they tied shoe-laces around their rims in the Catford Hill Climb to get extra traction on the wet fallen leaves. I try and visit and perhaps have tea with these old club members.This can be in their homes or in shelted accomodation. What is tragic is that you can remmeber them as they were pushing you up Digswell on the way home from the Hill probably done the best part of a 120 miles. Just a shell of their former self. All the happy times spent on the road or in the kafs and pubs and the jokes and pranks, remember one guy puncturing and changing his inner tube besides the road on one bitter November day, we cycled to a kaf called the Langley and it was shut but there was a pub very near called the Farmers Boy so we stopped there. Out came the punctured tube to be mended, no water so they got behind the bar and used the publicans lead butler sink. Couldn't inflate the thing. Two of the pumps they had were not that much good, brief discussion about the merits of a Britanica or an Apex pump. One of these lads had a party piece which he always like to do at any opportunity. Yes it happened out came his old 8" of a todger and he said this is what you call a pump son. The whole pub errupted in laughter and when ever we used the pub again the locals use to tell the story. This is what club cyclings is all about. People like Ray, Doug and Frank and others. Not the the two testicles you would put astride a Brooks Swallow if you rode Hilary. Thats a polite way of saying you are talking Bllck's. Now I know I am going to be kicked off list for this but I use expitives all the time especaily when crap like that is said about our lightweight builders by a bloke who has never ever been involved in real club cycling. There are two forms of history those who fought they way up at Omah at D day and those he wrote it up afterwards. Me I go with the ones who were at the sharp end doing the bussiness and taking the muck and bulletts. Sorry for the spelling and grammar. Have fun and ride the bikes, breath the wind and see through the crap. You all be lucky ATB Mick