Nigel wrote: "So far as Neil's question, if I buy something at a jumble, and pay the price asked, I am happy and the seller is happy. The big difference is that I buy for my own needs and not to sell it on eBay for a profit".
Surely the ethical issue is whether the item was bought knowing the price to be well below market value, not whether it was for your own use, or for resale? Either way (own use or resale) you are benefitting at the expense of the vendor, so I fail to see how you can justifiably take the moral high ground on this one, Nigel.
Nei Foddering Weymouth, Dorset, England
>From: "NIGEL LAND" <ndland@btinternet.com>
>Reply-To: NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com>
>To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>,"Hilary Stone"
><hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [CR]ASC Sturmey Hubs
>Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 21:16:51 +0100
>
>Dealings in cycle parts are an important issue and I am pleased that my
>post
>has created so much interest and thank all who have responded. It was not
>my
>intention to raise personal issues, BUT, as Hilary has declared himself I
>think it is a good opportunity to clear the air. On reflection I can see
>that eBay has turned a small scale hobby into an international business and
>I guess I can't argue with that in principle, or with the potential
>business
>opportunities that have been created. It will also eventually level prices
>as we have all seen the high priced 'rare' item followed by a few more with
>ever decreasing prices. My concern is the ethical side, and I do realise
>that business ethics are subjective. I have had several 'get real' emails
>from the post and several in support of a previous era, when cyclists
>traded
>goods at a fair price - as still happens through the medium of this august
>group. To explain my attitude I will relate what I did when offered a
>collection of cycling books by a woman who got in touch with me and had no
>idea of the value. She was planning to move from Lincolnshire back home to
>Cornwall and needed money. I am quite sure she would have taken £200. I
>felt
>obliged to maximise her earnings, but explained that I had no idea of the
>'real' value and offered to sell them for her on eBay. She made £1200 after
>selling costs and I made nothing, other than a good feeling. Not true - I
>had the opportunity to rapid read about 50 superb books! Now this may sound
>a little self righteous, as I am in the fortunate position that I don't
>need
>to make money out of my hobby, but it does give me the integrity to
>question
>those who do.
>Cycling in the UK is a world where I am constantly surprised that everyone
>knows everyone else - there are many long term relationships built on the
>back of a lot of hard miles and a shared passion for bicycles and all
>related stuff. We do talk about the issue currently being debated.
>What Hilary has to understand is that he is a nationally and
>internationally
>known figure, and all power to him. However, such prominence carries
>responsibilities, as our deputy Prime Minister is discovering to his cost!
>(John Prescott, for US readers.) So down to brass tacks. Attending jumbles
>as a seller gives one the opportunity to skim all the cream from other
>sellers. Over many such events I have seen Hilary come with a few scrap
>parts and unwanted books - rarely in attendance at his pitch, while picking
>over the stalls with an impressive diligence. I fell foul of his expertise
>when he discovered a rare Elswick-Hopper catalogue a couple or so years ago
>on a stall run by a fellow V-CC member. He bought it and brought ot over to
>me immediately and sold it at a good profit. I discovered its origin a
>short
>while later, when I showed it to the erstwhile owner. We both agreed that
>it
>'wasn't exactly cricket, old chap.' OK, fair deal for a dealer, but I am
>buying catalogues for a reseach project and for eventual gift to the V-CC
>library, as I am the marque enthusiast for that (much neglected) company.
>At
>the time I resented being ripped off by someone who professes to be an
>expert and source of knowledge, and who, at the time, was a committee
>member
>of my club - the V-CC. This post he no longer holds, having declined to
>stand at the last AGM. I must emphasise that I had forgotten the incident
>until challenged to produce facts. So guesses and gossip aside, this is my
>personal experience and one that is supported by many, many fellow V-CC
>friends and acquaintances - and several listers.
>So far as Neil's question, if I buy something at a jumble, and pay the
>price
>asked, I am happy and the seller is happy. The big difference is that I buy
>for my own needs and not to sell it on eBay for a profit. Once again, I am
>not against people making a buck, far from it, but isn't there a limit to
>what is acceptable behaviour? If the consensus in no - it's just business,
>then I will happily count myself as a past member of CR,as it doesn't fit
>with my view of the cycling hobby.
>One final point - is it any different from buying and selling anything
>else?
>Yes, in my view. If old Henry Sandon from the Antiques Roadshow turned out
>to be an eBay dealer in Royal Worcester I would be far less likely to
>believe his pronouncements. If you are a dealer, deal, but if you want to
>be
>an objective expert on a subject, then don't mix it with business.
>
>
>Nigel Land
>Barton on Humber
>UK
>
>
>I am the seller of the Shellwin hubs Nigel refers to; He is correct in that
>I bought them at York but I purchased them through a third party for a
>figure a lot in excess of what he quotes. I did buy parts from the person
>who originally had the Shellwin hubs but he was not a 'old guy' and I paid
>the prices he requested without haggling; they were I think fair to both
>parties and what I would normally expect within the UK. And I make no
>secret
>of the fact that quite a considerable portion of my income comes from
>buying
>and selling old bike parts. Is that any more wrong that buying or selling
>anything else? But I am certain that people should be very careful to check
>the truth before presenting guesses and gossip as fact...
>
>Hilary Stone, Bristol, England
>
>
>Hmm, that's potentially a new legal principle: "Caveat Vendor" instead of
>"Caveat Emptor".
>
>I'd like to hear from anyone who goes to buy at a cycle jumble who ISN'T
>hoping to pick up a real bargain.
>
>Is there a moral difference between someone who buys an item way below what
>they know to be the (eBay) market value for their own use, and someone who
>buys to re-sell?
>
>Nigel, if you see someone selling something you really want for £10, when
>you know it will fetch £200, will you insist on buying it for £200? Or at
>what level will you feel that you can ethically complete the transaction?
>
>The person who bought the Shellwins partly relies on trading in cycle parts
>for his living, and is very well known for this in the British cycling
>scene. I buy from him, and I have no problem with whatever he paid for the
>item, only whether I'm happy to pay the price for it. Likewise, if I were
>to sell to him, I would consider that whatever he sold the item for would
>be
>no concern of mine. As vendor, I have the opportunity to ask others
>regarding the value of what I'm selling, and if I sell without doing so,
>then it's down to me - I'm not going to whine about being the victim of
>someone making a substantial profit, if I haven't taken the trouble to find
>out what my stuff's worth, old guy or no.
>
>As far as ASC's are concerned, I'll be selling one or two myself shortly.
>Regrettably, the most recent one I bought, at what I thought was a good
>price, looked like a ball of mud, and when I cleaned it off, I found that
>one of the spoke holes was pulled out. I bought a shell on eBay for over
>£100, and am paying for the hub to be completely overhauled by a well-known
>specialist. I'll sell it with the correct trigger, which has been
>similarly
>overhauled, a quick-release connector which cost me £15, and a pair of
>Sturmey wingnuts. If I don't get the going rate for it, I may well be
>selling at a loss, depending on what the overhaul costs me, but then, I
>should have checked it more carefully - my problem!
>
>Having said that, if it had cost me far less, I'd be delighted to sell it
>at
>whatever profit I could make. - I have a hungry collection to feed!
>
>Neil Foddering
>Weymouth, Dorset, England
>
>
> > From: "NIGEL LAND" <ndland@btinternet.com>
> > Reply-To: NIGEL LAND <ndland@btinternet.com>
> > Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:56:27 +0100
> > To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Subject: [CR]ASC Sturmey Hubs
> >
> > Hey North America, what is happening? $456 for a Sturmey ASC? What's
>going
> > on? Investment bank bonus declarations or a subtle finger to UK buyers
>given
> > the proximity of Independence Day? I just don't get it. Mind you, I did
>hear
> > of a pair of Shelwin hubs being bought at York Rally Saddle Bag Sale a
> > couple of weeks ago for £10 and sold on eBay by a 'renowned' CR member
>after
> > a quick polish for in excess of £200. So there you go. York Rally is
>very
> > much a riders' event, but the businessmen are always around, looking for
>a
> > quick buck. Is that a problem? Personally I don't think much of it,
>given
> > that the seller was probably an old guy with no idea of the value of
>what
>he
> > had. So, what are the feelings of this august group on prices and making
>big
> > bucks from fellow cyclists?
> >
> > Nigel Land
> > Barton on Humber
> > UK
> > PS anyone want an ASC for $2,000? Used notes please and I promise
>airmail
> > delivery.