Tam,
You're getting too wound up about this. If my past recollections don't strike you as being truthful, then just cast it aside. If you honestly believe you have a real-deal Eddy bike built by Ernesto, then it must be true. Go for it.
Dave Patrick Chelsea, Michigan
Tam Pham <terminaut@gmail.com> wrote: Now that's what I call growing history! Are you saying that your brother had many bikes modified by Pino, including the drillium steerer? As you can see, you're also introducing a lot of data that wasn't disclosed until I posted my photos.
As for your reference to myth-building, the original auction from Sept 4th, 2003 states:
"No documentation, but this is possibly one of Eddy Merckx's bikes he used for his hour record. This was originally purchased from Cecil Behringer, one of the top frame-builders. "
That was an unfortunate mis-interpretation by the auctioneer. He was auctioning the bike on behalf of Todd Davis, and is not a bike person/historian himself. Additionally, he guessed the bike to be 1975 for the auction when in all likelihood it's a 1972. The auctioneer did not have as much interest in getting details perfect and thus some of the confusion. As for the bike being shipped from Italy in 1982, perhaps the reason you haven't heard about that is because you didn't contact Todd Davis directly to ask for details on its history and I did?
Let's get to the "specific size" ordered by your brother. In your prior CR post, you said the size of the bike was 57cm. I would assume this to be the typical sizing scheme for the day, which is seat tube center to top? This bike is a happy 60cm center to top, and matches the specifications posted on the Colnago site for the actual hour bike:
http://www.colnagonews.com/
Here's a photo of my measurement:
http://www.fooriders.com/
Unless you want to change your story about the size of the bike your brother rides, I think the point about this having been his bike is moot.
Tam Pham Huntington Beach, CA - USA
PS: I only brought up the "I'm pretty damn sure this item is my brother's old bike" reference earlier to establish that you sometimes are sure and sometimes aren't sure, depending on the convenience of how it fits into the context.
On 8/20/06, David Patrick <patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Tam,
I am not keeping this on list. Dale emailed both of us off list and told us to chill, to which I had already agreed upon. If you want this on list, you got it. Yes, this bike's "history" is growing with each time it appears on Ebay. By this, I mean people trying to link this bike directly to bike/bikes built specifically to Merckx's hour-record attempt. Today we hear from you that this bike was shipped to the U.S. from Italy by Pino, a bit of info that had not seen posted in any of the earlier Ebay postings. What is happening here, as put to me by another CR member, is myth building. That's what it is: a myth. To my knowledge, there isn't any paperwork/documentation that this was an "alternate" hour-record bike for Merckx, etc.
OK, now my past recollections in the CR forum have two different ways my older brother disposed of the bike, is that correct (I haven't gone back & read them)? In one, as I recall, I stated that he had traded the bike back to Turin, perhaps for some Campy stuff. In the other recollection, I thought that he traded it to Cecil towards a Behringer road frame. I thought it was the latter, but a friend of my brothers told me that he thought it was the former. I have not spoken to my older brother in 15+ years, so I simply do not know the correct answer. I do know that I was with my brother when he got the bike at Turin and it was a Merckx labeled Colnago track bike, finished exactly per the bike in question. The guys at Turin were floored when they unpacked it, as they just knew the box was suppose to contain a Colnago track bike in a specific size as ordered by my brother. This is fact. I was there. I still remember them hauling it out of the box and showing it to my brother. That said, you can choose to dismiss what I've said. I don't feel I have any motive to misrepresent any info about this bike in question, but please tell me if I'm wrong.
Also, my brother was a very, very good friend of Pino, as was I, and my brother hung out at Pino's house/shop all of time. Every bike my brother ever owned after 1972 had Pino goodies outfitted on it, and Pino even did the "drillium" on my brother's bikes. Pino even gave his old green Fiat station wagon to my brother to use for a few years. Also, my brother owned two Behringer road frames and one Behringer track frames, and my brother met Cecil on more than a few occassions. Now, that said, doesn't it seem odd that another Merckx/Colnago track bike should turn up in the sphere of Pino & Cecil Behringer? I mean, that is just really strange stuff, if you ask me. Doesn't that just seem to be a bit odd? Kind of Twilight Zone, don't you think?
Now, if you think I'm pulling all of the above out of my butt, then you are certainly welcome to this opinion. I do think you should keep in mind that whatever you've learned about this bike (other than what I've said) has come from people who have a vested interest in establishing as high of a value as possible for the bike, as they were trying to sell the bike. I also imagine that they are currently trying to protect themselves from any past statements they've made regarding the bike's provenance, as they don't want to be accused of misrepresentations. But where's the proof?
Also, from what I know of Ernesto Colnago, I really, really doubt that he would have given/sold Pino an extra hour-record bike. From what I've seen & heard, Ernesto keeps a pretty tight guard on special one-off & team bikes. Perhaps Steven Maasland can confirm or deny my take on this.
I really mean no disrespect, Tam, but I feel like you're trying to assign a special history to this bike that just doesn't exist. I guess I can understand a bit of this, as you paid a specific amount for the bike, believe some of the myth regarding Merckx & the hour record attempt. Hey, if you can establish & document some of the claims made, I'll be the first to apologize for casting any aspersions in your direction regarding this bike. It's just my opinion that if a bike is going to linked to Eddy Merckx, the greatest cycling ever, then the link really should consist of more than hear-say.
Oh, one last thing: I never received your email Tam asking me about my take on this bike. I'm sorry, but email can occasionally be that way. I can tell you I would have certainly replied, as I always loved my brother's Merckx/Colnago. On top of this, I always try to help anyone who requests any info from me, although I'm far from being an expert. Oh yeah, I did send an email to Bob Hovey off-list about this bike. Isn't that ok? Or did I step on some toes. I don't get the point? Bob: did I do something wrong?
Take care.
Dave Patrick Chelsea, Michigan
Tam Pham <terminaut@gmail.com> wrote: David,
Since you're keeping a discussion on the list I will reply here despite my already having apologized to you for my inadvertent reply to the entire list when I meant only for John to receive.
Anyways - your post seems to be be playing the "it was years ago" card and your memory is lacking about the bike. Yet, just last month you wrote to another list member regarding the bike's recent auction:
"My brother had a very close relationship with both Pino and Cecil Behringer and I'm pretty damn sure this item is my brother's old bike"
I subsequently emailed you directly on July 18th to ask if you could elaborate some details about your brother's bike and got no response of any kind. You are now emailing Dale and are complaining of this bike's "growing history" which I don't understand at all. It's just an "alternate history from yours" if you will, that is more in line and consistent with the limited evidence we have so far. That alternate history comes from people who actually had the bike in their posession and are relaying what they've been told. Nobody is making any guarantees about the bike's provenance. The closest thing to a guarantee so far is your repeated conjecture that it was your brother's bike (with no details to collaborate).
Tam Pham Huntington Beach, CA - USA
On 8/20/06, David Patrick <patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net > wrote:
Tam,
Spin it any way you like. It's Dale's list and I'm not going to get into a pissing contest on list, which no one needs. Your comments directed towards me were uncalled for, in my opinion, and that is what I was bringing to your attention. My original posts to the CR list were years ago and, as I said, was conjecture on my part over what must have been Todd's listing on Ebay. On top of this, I hadn't spoken to my older brother in some years, so I was relying on my memory as the basis for some of my comments. It will be interesting to see what concrete documetation you can find to support some of these theories & claims surrounding this bike. Your comments about Ernesto being a source of information are most likely correct, as Pino & Ernesto seemed to loath each other. Pino claimed to have never been paid by Ernesto for his work on the hour record bike(s) and Pino cursed Ernesto on many occassions. I'm sure Ernesto has & will curse Pino.
Dave Patrick Chelsea, Michigan
Tam Pham <terminaut@gmail.com> wrote: David - I haven't badmouthed you in anyway. I am relaying the thoughts and recollections of a prior owner, and also pointed to two of your own posts that aren't in agreement with each other. I did not want to squabble in public over this. Is that where you want to take it?
-Tam
On 8/20/06, David Patrick <patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Yeah, well you had better say the comments below "on list" This stinks. I also don't appreciate the comments off-list, as I know John Barron and I've dealt with him a fair amount and I don't need you bad mouthing me to people. What you've done is crap. And I think you should be careful about attaching history to this bike before and/or without documentation. I mean, look what happened to me when I made some claims about this bike... I get attacked by the likes of you.
dp
Tam Pham <terminaut@gmail.com> wrote:
David, I emailed John and had already told him I didn't mean for that to go to the list. With Gmail's user-interface it's easy to make mistakes like that... and I definitely did not want to make it a public issue. I appologize for that and assure you it was unintentional.
Anyways - Steven Maasland has agreed to ask Ernesto about the bike once the summer shutdown for the Colnago factory is over. Hopefully some concrete info will come about, although Steven is fearful that the sour history between Cecil/Pino and Ernesto may be an issue and Ernesto would reject any discussion of it.
Again - that was truly an inadvertent reply to the list.
-Tam
On 8/20/06, David Patrick < patrick-ajdb@sbcglobal.net > wrote: Tam,
Lighten up my boy, as I don't really appreciate your comments directed my way and your comments are entirely uncalled for. So, are you gonna nail me to a cross later today? If so, can you give me an approximate time, as I'd like to get a good ride in first, ok? Whatever I said about this bike was conjecture on my part when it appeared on Ebay on the first go round. I was guessing that it was the same bike that my brother bought from the Turin shop in Chicago, as there aren't too many of these Colnogo/Merckx track bikes around, plus this bike was the same size as my brother would have ridden. Jeez, sorry if my comments don't fit your theory . It is a fact that my brother was very good friends with Pino and also knew Cecil quite well, so that added a bit of support to my conjecture. Is there documentation on Pino shipping this bike over from Italy? Cecil and Pino are both gone, so you are relying on Todd Davis for this info? Todd has provided you with the shipping documentation? Or is this just hear-say? I guess I'm just asking as I don't recall this "colorful" of a history with the bike when it was listed on Ebay a few years ago (assuming this is the same bike). Just wondering....
Dave Patrick Chelsea, Michigan
Tam Pham <terminaut@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi John,
Pino set the bike up with the BB as well as lightened the steerer tube significantly (see attached photo). I don't know if you followed the infamous thread about the "prototype" hour record bike a while back, but this is the subject bike.
Cheers, -Tam
PS: David Patrick made some claims about the bike that the original person who bought it from Cecil Behringer says is ridiculous... And David also had two different stories!
http://search.bikelist.org/
The history from Cecil is that this frameset was originally used as a prototype of sorts for the hour record effort. In 1982 Pino shipped it from Italy over to Cecil, and Cecil didn't really have an interest in keeping the bike as he would rather see it used. He thus sold it to his friend Todd Davis on the condition that Todd would put it to good racing, which he did for 10 years until he retired. After retiring, Todd then sold the bike and Noel Smith (a collector) bought it. Noel is now gettting out of bikes and I picked it up from him.
On 8/20/06, John Barron wrote:
>
> Tam-
>
> How did you deal with the threading requirements for the Pino BB?
>
> His BB's are somewhat difficult to deal with because the threading in the
> frame's BB shell must be continous from one end to the other. Most BB shells
> are are threaded for 2 separate cups.
>
> Do tell!
>
> Thanks
>
> John Barron
> Minneapolis MN
>
> Tam wrote-
>
> Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 18:25:08 -0700
> From: "Tam Pham" < terminaut@gmail.com>
> To: "Classic Rendezvous" < Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org >
> Subject: [CR]Pino Morroni BB in action...
> Message-ID: < b27bc5c00608191825o69345db4oa842dc80a3faa018@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 14
>
> I was working on one of my project bikes today and noticed that the Pino
> Morroni bottom bracket is exceptionally smooth. I haven't done any
> maintenance on the BB since taking ownership of it, and after witnessing
> how
> freely it spins I can see why Pino went through the trouble of designing
> his
> own cartridge system. Anyways, for those who might be bored and have
> bandwidth to download a 2MB video, check out my 40-second clip at:
>
> http://www.fooriders.com/
>
> Cheers,
> Tam Pham
> Huntington Beach, CA - USA