Pete, Thanks for sharing the Kirk stuff. Harry Rensch started building in his own right in 1935. By 36 he was selling welded frames in large numbers. Claud Butler started experimenting with welded frames in 1937 and his frames first went on sale in December 1938. This was the Massed Start model. Incidentally this welded frame of Claud's was the first with the his long tanged fork ends. Stuart Purves was design manager back then at Butler's and Les Ephgrave was a builder there as well. These two teamed up togther after leaving Clauds and both produced wonderful welded frames. Hobbs were about the same time but they did have some problems with these. Post War circa 1947 Dayton Amalgam and Enfield Unitize appeared on the scene. 1948 Special Hidiminium tubing is drawn by Reynolds for experiments. Both Hobbs of Barbican and Holdsworths exhibit welded alloy frames at the 48 November Cycle show made from this tubing. The Hobbs has a specially produced aluminium convential two-plate fork crown and the alloy fork blades are welded into this. Holdsworths favour the use of a solid crown and use round section fork blades. I am sure Ted Woodhall produced all the early alloy welded Holdsworths. He also made all the Hercules team frames. This was the same show that R.O.Harrison first showed his Shortwin. This was welded througout. Wheelbase of 39" (short in those far off days) and still allowed plenty of clearance for 27" wheels. No toe clip over hang on these. This had twin down tubes which accommodated the base of the seat tube in front of the bottom bracket shell. This enables the rear wheel to fit snugly into the rear triangle, and tight up against the seat tube. Don't believe what you hear this handle superbly, I have raced one and was most impressed by the design. This was on H.P Mich 50's and I did a long 23. The French were producing welded or lugless frames in the late 20's like everything we were slow to follow. They also produced an all welded alloy frame before us. If you want to check any of these facts out the folowing are useful: Bicycle Nov.17th.1948. The Cylcist Nov.9th.1938. The Complete Cyclist R.J.Way 1951. The Cycling Handbook A.L.Pullen 1951. And any article by Johnnie Dennis. Welded frames were all the rage from 1936 to 51. By 59 it was only Jack Taylor and Fother's up in Liverpool who were still making these in any numbers. Best wishes Joe. Croeso Cymru Joe King Nr. Maenaddwyn Ynys Mon Wales