Re: [CR]Stand-over height for Woodrup

(Example: Framebuilders:Pino Morroni)

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:57:32 -0800
From: "jj and kk" <designzero@earthlink.net>
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
Subject: Re: [CR]Stand-over height for Woodrup
References: <MONKEYFOODDl2Tgx3In00004fe3@monkeyfood.nt.phred.org>
In-Reply-To:


Ken, Jerry and all-

Design typicals by nationality or trends are a problem unless the build date of the bike is also known.

My view was to try to take the "era" out of the equation, one can use the "numbers" to help establish a trend or design philosophy from a builder, and relevant with respect to time.

Here are some examples to illustrate:

The difference between a typical 700c tubular rim and a 27" clincher is about 4mm in radius, note typical as different rim makers have cross sections that "present" slightly different dimensions in side view.

Now, back when I was racing, I raced under a gear limit, it was measured with a 27" wheel chart! but everyone rode 700c tubulars, the difference between a Clement 220 Criterium Seta and a Del Mundo was also on average 4mm, so the same bike could be dimensioned differently if using various tires and measuring height, so one was smart to ride the larger tire, at least in the rear.

Masi's in the CR timeline measure "short" if measured by another makers' method, the difference is minor but a "Masi Measure" is not how many ohters did. At one point center to top measure was comon, later center to center gained in popularity.

Wheelbase, unless one has a frame with vertical drops will vary, there have been discussions on where to take this measure from, I basically used the placement of the wheel as assembled by the maker if a whole bike. If the frame was Italian, and the dropout filed "square" as was often the case, the wheel can be up to almost 3mm more forward in the slot than say a "typical" French frame when both employing Campagnolo ends. If you normally set up the rear axle at the mid point of the dropout and give me a measure, and I don't know you set your bike up that way our misunderstanding will almost be 1 centimeter

There are some other items that sound absolute until one thinks a bit, "Set Back" is often referring to the horizontal dimension behind the vertical line through the BB axle to the intesection center of the top tube and seat tube. Note that the recently referenced DeRosa build cards for Eddy, had some with a set back noted. Also note that these frames are of almost equal in size. A 48cm frame with 15cm of set back is a very different animal than if the seat tube is 64cm. So, these numbers in my book are co-dependent.

All of these examples are of small increments, but when assembled in different permutations can help explain why a "smaller" bike feels bigger when just standing over the top tube. Or, help give context to the builders' design view in time. Without seeing the bikes and measuring, comparisons are very vague except in the most broadest terms, because I don't know how they "got there".

John Jorgensen
Palos Verdes Ca USA