RE: [CR]Was: Woodrup frames. Now: BB height, etc.

(Example: Framebuilding)

From: "Ken Freeman" <freesound@comcast.net>
To: "'Chuck Schmidt'" <chuckschmidt@earthlink.net>, "'CR RENDEZVOUS'" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Subject: RE: [CR]Was: Woodrup frames. Now: BB height, etc.
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:20:50 -0500
In-Reply-To: <8132BB47-01DC-4B3B-96C3-47F03931E9F0@earthlink.net>
Thread-Index: Accs/6uQbeURsN5tRounsumkHLwssgAGRufA


My humble opinion would be to think of a BB drop of 8 cm as a lot, and desirable to many, and a BB drop of 6.5 cm as a little for a road bike, also desirable to some riders. Beyond that, who knows? We certainly don't have an ISO standard to check against. Actually there are ISO standards on bikes, but I don't think they address this aspect of frame design.

Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Schmidt Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 12:18 PM To: CR RENDEZVOUS Subject: Re: [CR]Was: Woodrup frames. Now: BB height, etc.

A fascinating aspect to this whole discussion of high and low BB height is that there hasn't been a single dimension mentioned as to what would be considered a high or low BB.

Hilarious...

Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, CA

On Dec 31, 2006, at 6:41 AM, oroboyz@aol.com wrote:
> Hey Ken:
>
> I can't help but wonder about a couple of things you wrote here:
>
> << Mine (1980, pre-TSD) also has a high BB, the drop is about 6.4 cm.
> Compares
>
> to about a cm more for my Trek and others. I think this contributes
> to the
>
> Woodrup's sense of stability. >>
>
>
>
> "In Theory" the lower the BB, the more stable and of course the
> opposite for
>
> higher BBs.
>
>
>
> In fact, if I remember correctly, that is one of Richard Sach's unique
>
> characteristics in his frames... He has used quite a bit lower bb
> height
>
> and while you may not be able to pedal through the curves quite as
> much,
>
> that is a well considered trade-off that results in a more secure
> control
>
> (stability)while cornering.
>
>
>
> I think that much of the sought after stability and steering accuracy
> is part
>
> of accurate frame alignment and dishined wheels... So many frames, of
> all quality
>
> levels, are not straight.. Just a 1/2 CM in misalignment can make a
> huge
>
> difference and we tend to blame other factors (frame angles,
> dimensions)
>
> when in fact, if the frame were carefully aligned, would make the
> bikes
>
> ride ever so much better....
>
>
>
> << My theory is that both of my frames are small frames, and subject
> to
>
> compromises inherent in minimizing toe overlap and gettign adequate
> front
>
> tire to downtube clearance, without extremely long top tubes. One
> design
>
> feature to address this is to raise the BB, and another is to lay back
> the
>
> head tube to perhaps 72 degrees. >>
>
>
>
> In my (limited) experience, the reason many builders/manufacturers
> make
>
> a higher BB in smaller frame is to solve the problem/save a lot of
> work
>
> in joinery at the compacted head tube /head lugs area...
>
> By raising the BB, that allows raising the upper head lug, allowing
> quick and unmodified use of the stock lugs. I.e., no cutting or
> fitting, etc. Another solution to this was a one-piece head lug that
> allowed the top tube & down tube to intersect...
>
> On road bikes of any size, I don't think the clearance of the down
> tube vs tire is much concern...
>
> 'Course I could be wrong. It is fun the theorize about all this
> mysterious stuff!
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> Dale
>
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, NC USA
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: freesound@comcast.net
> To: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net; hydelake@verizon.net;
> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Sent: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 7:43 PM
> Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames
>
> Jerry,
>
> Mine (1980, pre-TSD) also has a high BB, the drop is about 6.4 cm.
> Compares
> to about a cm more for my Trek and others. I think this contributes
> to the Woodrup's sense of stability. The SOH on mine is 77.6 cm, seat
> tube is 53.5 c-t, 52 cm c-c.
>
> My '84 or so Mondonico (sure looks on-topic, but I can't be sure!) has
> a BB drop of 7.2, 52 cm c-c seat tube, and 78.3 cm SOH. Both bikes
> seem to have high BBs, so I don't think national style is necessarily
> being illustrated here. My theory is that both of my frames are small
> frames, and subject to compromises inherent in minimizing toe overlap
> and gettign adequate front tire to downtube clearance, without
> extremely long top tubes. One design feature to address this is to
> raise the BB, and another is to lay back the head tube to perhaps 72
> degrees. My Woodrup and Mondonico respectively have head tube angles
> of 72.0 degrees and 72.4 degrees (I have less confidence in this
> latter number).
>
> Both bikes are sort of a French fit for me.
>
> Ken Freeman
> Ann Arbor, MI USA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org
> [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Jerome &
> Elizabeth Moos
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 11:56 AM
> To: Barb & Dan Artley; Classic Rendezvous
> Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames
>
> I have an early/mid 80's Woodrup. Nice bike, but does have a very
> high bottom bracket. Haven't measured the actual BB height, but the
> standover height is what I'd expect on a bike with a seat tube about 2
> cm longer. No one else has mentioned this, but were high BB's typical
> of Woodrup? On the other hand I also have a 52 cm ctc 1988 Mercian
> KOM with a standover height about the same as a 55 cm French of
> Italian frame, so maybe the high BB's were a British thing in the
> 80's.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, TX
>
>
>
> Barb & Dan Artley <hydelake@verizon.net> wrote:
> I can't say how pleased I am hearing so much of Woodrup Cycles. A
> Woodrup was my first really nice race bike replacing what I considered
> more of a tourer, my PX-10 (Sorry Peter K.). It was unfortunately
> crashed, badly repaired and sold, but recently repurchased. I'm hoping
> that someday it will get the restoration it deserves for the fond
> memories of my only race season back in 1973. Thanks to all who've
> provided this information. Does anyone know if they are still building
> keepers of the flame in lugged steel? ...
> More?
>
> Dan Artley in Parkton, Maryland
>
> Archive-URL:
> http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=classicrendezvous.
> 10612.
> 1653.eml
> Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:57:24 -0500
> Subject: RE: [CR] WOODRUP frames
> From: Doug Fattic
>
> The subject of Woodrup frames reminds me of my own experiences
> visiting their framebuilding shop when I was learning to build at
> Ellis Briggs.
> I
> wanted to learn how to do a fluted seat stay top like what was on my
> Masi and Jack Briggs rang up Woodrup to see if one of them would be
> willing to show me how. What I vaguely remember Jack Briggs telling me
> was that somehow Jack's father helped Woodrup get started. The date
> around 1953 or 4 sticks in my mind from our conversation about it.
> Leeds is about 15 miles to the east from the much smaller town of
> Shipley where Ellis Briggs is located.
> The good size city of Bradford is about 3 miles to the south.
> In
> other words, these places are one big megalopolis. 15 British miles is
> not
> 15 American miles. The roads are not laid out on a square because of
> the shape of the land and going to Leeds seemed like a big trip. It
> was lots of stop and go city driving on winding roads in my old Morris
> Minor. This generosity (to help others when it wasn't to his own
> advantage) was part of Jack's character too and something I've been
> deeply grateful for (since he did the same for me).
>
> I was a little shy going in the door and was glad Jack had asked
> permission for me. One of the sons (I don't remember which one) spent
> several hours of the afternoon showing me what to do. That day he was
> the only one there. I had some seat stays with me and he demonstrated
> how to miter the end and braze another piece of tubing in that place
> and then file off the excess. I looked around a bit and realized they
> did things a bit differently than Briggs. I also remember him
> suggesting to me that there wasn't much need now days (as in 1975) to
> pin frames together before brazing since hearth brazing was replaced
> with oxyacetylene brazing. As he explained, a spot isn't likely to
> break or move. All in all a valuable and pleasant afternoon. As a
> newbie, I was respectful of his advice and didn't try to argue how we
> did things a bit differently at Briggs. My impression was that Woodrup
> was a bit more production oriented - meaning that they concentrated on
> getting a certain number of frames made in a decent way in a week.
> It
> was the primary thing that brought in money for them. The frame shop
> at Briggs when I was there was a bit more of an extension of the
> bigger business. There was the regular retail sales on the ground
> floor with several sales people. There were the regular Raleigh and
> other bikes and another area had pro stuff. In the back was the repair
> shop with 2 workers.
> Upstairs in one room was Bill and Rodney the painters and in another,
> Andrew mostly made the frames one at a time to a particular person.
> The result of not having framebuilding be the center of the business
> was that it allowed a bit more individual attention to be paid to each
> frame being made.
> Jack
> never pressured Andrew to be more productive, he just wanted him to
> make them right. Jack himself also helped out in there but mostly he
> and his wife kept an eye on the entire business. When he was in the
> frame shop, it was primarily to teach me and share his considerable
> knowledge or finalize instructions about another frame for Andrew to
> build. Those circumstances really were a benefit to me which I have
> always deeply appreciated.
> Another
> advantage was the ability to wander into the paint room next door and
> observe all the steps in painting. Bill and Rodney always enjoyed
> company and Andrew and I also ate our lunch in there.
>
> There are lots more memories of that time but not more time to write
> about them now. About the other framebuilders in West Yorkshire and
> the area itself.
>
> Doug Fattic
> Niles, Michigan USA
>
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