--- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > eRichie posted the following response to Bruce
> > Gordon on the Framebuilder's List. I am posting
> it
> > here with his permission:
> >
> -------------------------------------------------
> > snipped: (<bgcycles@svn.net> wrote)
> > 1) "But really Im concerned about the direction
> the
> > small framebuilding community is going."
> > and
> > 2) "...and more important awards do not pay the
> > bills.
> >
> > my reply -
> > 1) i'm not. i think "the direction the small
> > framebuilding community is
> > going"
> > is a good one. these cats are upbeat, eager,
> > enthusiastic, and positive.
> > don't
> > take your rainy day and drag them into it. their
> sun
> > is high and it give
> > s off
> > alot of light and heat.
> > 2) awards are stooped imho. regardless, i saw you
> > propped your award
> > from japan once or four times in a forum or two.
> > where's the love there?
> >
> > bruce - enough with the negative waves already. at
> > one time, you may
> > have seen a market in racks and also tigged welded
> > price point frames
> > as a way to bolster your income. find some 2006
> > version of that entre-
> > penurial verve to help you out now. if you aren't
> > selling frames or maki
> > ng
> > the living that you want, do you really think
> it'll
> > resolve itself by co
> > ndescending
> > to the state of the marketplace on internet
> forums?
> > (apologies for dangl
> > ing
> > a participle yo).
> > as i wrote 3 or 4 days ago, the sky is not
> falling,
> > and the universe is
> > not
> > expanding, alvy singer - at least it's not
> expanding
> > at such a rate that
> > all
> > of us need to eschew life and living at this very
> > moment.
> > e-RICHIE©®
> > paste this around if you please - i'm replying to
> > only one
> > of the 4-5 lists that this original post was
> spammed
> > to.
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Ray Dobbins
> > Miami Florida
> >
> >
> > Bruce Gordon <bgcycles@svn.net> wrote:
> > I am writing this response to all those have
> been
> > discussing topics I
> > put in
> > my post after the NAHBS. Again I apologize for
> > multiple posting, but
> > there
> > have been so many posts and private emails from
> > people on the CR,
> > iBbob,Touring,and Frambuilders lists that I
> thought
> > I would send it to
> > them
> > all. Im also sorry that I have not been able to
> > reply to all the
> > private
> > emails that offered advice, and support.
> >
> >
> >
> > I feel that there is one major subject that has
> been
> > neglected in all
> > the
> > conversations. I know that I have been called a
> > whiner, a complainer,
> > and
> > tiring. Im OK with that. But really Im concerned
> > about the
> > direction the
> > small framebuilding community is going.
> >
> >
> >
> > I read all about the concerns with the judging of
> > the show I really
> > had no
> > problem with the awards it was a vote of the
> > people, and more
> > important
> > awards do not pay the bills.
> >
> > As I mentioned before, I handed out an anonymous
> > questionnaire to the
> > small
> > builders at the show. I received 17 back from the
> > builders, and the
> > results
> > were quite alarming.
> >
> > Here are some of the results.
> >
> > Not one builder was satisfied with the money they
> > made.
> >
> > All but 2 builders did not know what their
> overhead
> > was, and the 2 who
> > answered did not really know what overhead was.
> > Being the son of an
> > accountant I do know my overhead.
> >
> > Not one builder could retire on their current
> income
> > if necessary - this
> > is
> > particularly alarming because I will turn 58 in 3
> > months.
> >
> > Less than ½ said they had small savings or small
> > 401k plans
> >
> > The total years building of the 17 responses was
> 224
> > years (wow) or
> > 13.18
> > average
> >
> > I spoke to many builders at the show (not
> everyone)
> > and only one said
> > that
> > they made $35,000 building fulltime. Most were in
> > the under $20,000
> > range
> > which is where I fall. What was most alarming was
> > that the one builder
> > who
> > is most often held up as successful, was also in
> the
> > under $20,000 club.
> >
> > Many have said that small framebuilders are not
> > affected by what I call
> > Marketers (people who design frames and have them
> > built overseas, mostly
> > Japan and Taiwan). My business which is 95% TIGed
> > touring frames and
> > equipment, has definitely been hurt by them.
> >
> > It used to be that lugged frames could easily
> > command $1500 to $2000.
> > Now
> > with Japanese and Taiwan frames going for $800 to
> > $1400 the expected
> > price
> > for a lugged frame has been driven down to that
> > level in the mind for
> > the
> > consumer.
> >
> > I have spoken to several potential customers who
> > read about my
> > misfortune
> > (snipped). They were quite sympathetic, but they
> > hoped that I would NOT
> > raise my prices. While I welcome advice I would
> > really like to hear
> > from
> > builders who make more than the magical $35,000 a
> > year call me
> > greedy. A
> > friend with over 27 years building says he doesnt
> > need to be rich,
> > but he
> > would like to make a Living Wage (see
> >
>
http://www.epinet.org/
> > ).
> > In
> > the bay area that is $10 to $12 per hour. I dont
> > think that is too
> > much to
> > expect from a skilled craftsperson. So far I have
> > found one small
> > builder
> > who has reached that Living Wage. Any others out
> > there please
> > stand up!
> >
> > And what never ceases to amaze me is that every
> day
> > I read about more
> > new
> > builders joining the community I hope the new
> crew
> > builds an Old
> > Framebuilders Home Im almost ready.
> >
> >
> >
> > In closing I think there is something
> > fundamentally wrong with a
> > community
> > where virtually no one building frames makes even
> a
> > Living Wage
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bruce Gordon
> >
> > Bruce Gordon Cycles
> >
> > http://www.bgcycles.com
>
> Richard Sachs has mischaracterized Bruce Gordon's
> intent. It's incomplete of Sachs to assay the
> above
> common-sense post from Gordon as "negative." Those
> making little money in framebuilding are dabblers or
> reality-shocked. Gordon's post ought to be taken as
> a
> caring caveat to those high on being part of the
> framebuilding brethren via their place at the recent
> San Jose show. That's all. Another way to take
> Gordon's words is to consider the positivity of his
> truth with the negativity of others' untruth. Maybe
> Bruce Gordon should get into the investment-cast lug
> business, be another mentor -- and if he does, he
> should at least do what Nagasawa does that no other
> current i-c lug provider does -- contour the lug
> surfaces properly.
> Joe Starck
> Madison, Wisconsin USA
>
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