Any time after 9am............
Peter ============================================================= Peter Brueggeman pbrueggeman@ucsd.edu Director, Scripps Institution of Oceanography Library, UCSD 9500 Gilman Dr, Dept 0219, San Diego CA 92093-0219 USA Tel 858/534-1230 Fax 858/534-5269
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> CR
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: KOF: Rivendell is the new H.D. (Jerome & Elizabeth Moos)
> 2. For sale; Two NOS Schwinn Paramount framesets. (Peter Naiman)
> 3. Re: Rivendell lugs (was KOF etc.) (Joe Starck)
> 4. Interesting page on Keirin racing (Silver, Mordecai)
> 5. Re: KOF: Rivendell is the new H.D. "Actually, Nagasawa is more
> "H-D" than Rivendell." - Joe Starck (Joe Starck)
> 6. Re: Re: Overlooked great builders and other musings (Brandon Ives)
> 7. Re: Bottom line, KOF - Extended Headlugs...pre-84 bikes/Nervex...
> (Joe Starck)
> 8. More frames listed on ebay (Peter Brown)
> 9. Re: KOF Extended head tube (Kurt Sperry)
> 10. Re: Re: 5 figure bikes Rebecca Twigg's $10,000 bike...
> (Joe Starck)
> 11. re: extended head-tubes
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:30:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> To: "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com>, M4Campy@aol.com
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]KOF: Rivendell is the new H.D.
> Message-ID: <20060316213033.13848.qmail@web82201.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <20060316.081634.19490.658404@webmail10.lax.untd.com>
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>
> I think one thing that will hurt Rivendell's collectibility is the uncertainty over
who built them. Grant seems to be constantly changing the production location and
builders. Fortunately, in the case of the top model, nearly all of the half dozen or
more guys who have built them have been really top builders. But it seems that the
bikes most sought after in KOF circles are those built by the hand of just one guy
who the customer knows, like Baylis, Sachs, Gordon or Fattic. Also, the lesser
models built in in the US and now in Japan have probably undermined the Rivendell
image just a bit.
>
> The one hope for really great Rivendell collectibility is that, like CA Masi,
their story involves an incredible number of top builders who in future will be
legendary if they are not already. But Masi also has the European mystic and link to
a marque that supposedly supplied Merckx and Tom Simpson, not to mention the tragic
and romantic saga of Mario. Not sure Rivendell can ever match that. So it may be
that Rivendell will be more collectible than Baylis in the same sense that Raleigh
Pro, Paramount and PX-10 are more collectible than Masi. That is, there will be far
more Rivendells in future collections simply because far more were made, especially
if you include Heron and its Japanese heirs. Rivendell is no doubt a very important
bike in the same way as PX-10 or Paramount, in the sense that they changed an
industry and a little piece of society overall. But will Rivendell ever command the
same kind of price as Baylis or Sachs or Gordon? Highly unlikely.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, TX
>
>
>
> "brianbaylis@juno.com" <brianbaylis@juno.com> wrote:
> Michael,
>
> A well thought out prediction and many obvious observations about Rivend
> ell and their marketing and whatnot; but I suspect you will be wrong abo
> ut the future collectability of the frames. Without the original paintjo
> b, a Rivendell will fade into obscurity and be recognizable only by the
> hedious lug patterns; not enough to make it a collectable in the future
> compared to many other frames being built today. The craftsmanship is up
> there with many of the "custom" builders who are just using IC lugs and
> putting nice bikes together; but there is plenty of that out there, mos
> t with better styling than Riv (like Dave Kirk for example). I'm not say
> ing a Riv will have no value in the future; but I heartily disagree that
> they have what it takes to top the collectable market in the future.
>
> Needless to say, many may disagree with me. Perhaps hedious lugs will be
> hip in the far distant future. Fine by me. It's just my professional op
> inion based on my experience as a restorer and collector-type person.
>
> Nothing personal against Rivendell; they got a great thing going and wha
> t they do benifits all of us if we choose to capitalize on it.
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
>
>
>
> -- "Michael Wilkinson" wrote:
> Don made some interesting observations, Joe's comments about American Ic
> on
> not withstanding. To me it sounds a lot like Rivendell's model, tongue
> firmly in cheek!
>
> Rivendell fights, survives and becames a market 'power' based on style.
>
> All the while this was going on, gifted KOF Stylists like Joe Stark and
> Curt
> Goodrich were working on customs for Rivendell.
>
>
> The customizers fed off the Rivendell marketing machine, and Rivendell f
> ed
> off the customizers effectively creating concept bike after concept bike
>
> that stimulated new interest in Rivendell.
>
> Rivendell encouraged the customizers.
>
>
> Rivendel fosters iBOB, the Bobish Owners Group, that promotes fanatical
> consumer loyalty.
>
> Rivendell has competitors, bike makers that make a great opponent/villai
> n,
> because of the lack of soul and simple design in their bikes.
>
> Rivendells styling kept the emphasis on simple paint, ornamaent, chrome
> and
> detail.
>
>
> Rivendell promotes accessories out the kazoo.
>
> Rivendell pursues, cultivates and promotes the gotta have it factor.
>
> Ok, seriously. This is why I think down the road Rivendell will be the m
> ost
> collectable of the KOF bikes out there ;)
>
> Mike Wilkinson
> Castle Rock, CO
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:44:38 -0800 (PST)
> From: Peter Naiman <hetchinspete1@yahoo.com>
> To: classicrendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: [CR]For sale; Two NOS Schwinn Paramount framesets.
> Message-ID: <20060316214438.30717.qmail@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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>
> I recently bought out a local shop of quite a bit of NOS cycling goodies and in
with the lot were two New Old Stock Schwinn Paramounts which I'm offering to the list
for sale. For further information, please write offlist.
>
> According to Richard Schwinn, first frame is a later 1990s Paramount, fully
lugged, frame size is 56cm CC with a 57cm top tube, taking a 27.2mm seatpost with
Paramount dropouts. Rear Spacing is 130mm, with an English bottom bracket. As said
the frame is NOS, in a stunning dark metalic navy blue with white downtube panel with
Schwinn script. Jpgs will be made available on the Wool Jersey Gallery later tonight.
There are a few minor shop wear marks on the frame. I'm asking for $350 or B/O.
>
> The second Paramount according to the shop owner and Richard Scwinn is a mid 80s,
has Campagnolo dropouts, frame size 52cm CC with a 54cm top tube with 126cm rear
spacing taking a 27.2cm seatpost. Frame material is Columbus SLX. Frame colour is a
cream white, with chrome rear stay on the drive side with Schwinn lettering in
silver. This is a very handsome lugged frame. Takes brakes with the internal allen
nut. I'm asking for $450 or B/O.
>
> Peter Naiman
> Glendale, WI
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:59:41 -0800 (PST)
> From: Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Cc: "C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Rivendell lugs (was KOF etc.)
> Message-ID: <20060316215941.2832.qmail@web34310.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <00a001c64933$26aab800$6401a8c0@oemcomputer>
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>
> --- "C. Andrews" <chasds@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > As for Riv lugs... I have a 2000 Riv custom, with
> > the new
> > lugs, and I wish I had had it made with the Sachs
> > lugs,
> > which were still available at that time. I've
> > mentioned
> > this before, I know, but the Sachs lugs are clearly
> > the work
> > of a pro with an artistic eye, the proportions are
> > just
> > right, and I will NEVER understand why Grant went
> > away from
> > those. They were perfect..different from anything
> > else out
> > there even now, and made a great statement for the
> > bikes.
> >
> > Instead, he decided to roll-his-own, the result
> > shows it:
> > they're ill-proportioned; a chorus of italian,
> > french and
> > english lug styles that isn't the least bit
> > harmonious.
> > They're thick and clunky..all wrong.
>
> Charles,
> The "Sachs" lugs you speak of were -- according to
> Richard Sachs as he explained to me -- the result of
> Sachs' taste worked over by Hank Folson. And then
> there's Grant Petersen's input and possibly others
> input that only Petersen would know of, unless he's
> forgotten some. I like the newer "butterfly" lugs
> better than the older "woody woodpecker" lugs, and I
> think I could reverse your attitude better than anyone
> else if I had you in my presence with the two designs.
> The new is less a hodgepodge than the old. And
> you're bringing in the Match crew with your critique,
> ya know. Need I bring along my cuz Phillipe for
> back-up?
> 180-ly yours,
> Joe Starck
> Madison, WI USA
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:04:36 -0500
> From: "Silver, Mordecai" <MSilver@iso.com>
> To: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: [CR]Interesting page on Keirin racing
> Message-ID: <773FCCCDD769824588198305178278910C69E380@isomailp3.iso.com>
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>
> http://www.josiahng.com/
>
> "After a tradition Japanese breakfast composed of rice, salad, and fruit
> we went to put our keirin bikes together at the shop. It was quiet an
> impressive sight of bikes, neatly organized tools and a pro shop with
> all the keirin goodies available at a discounted price. I tried to
> control myself as much as possible but ended with a bill over $600 full
> of goodies. There was an older gentleman named Mr Nagasawa there to
> assist us with preparing our bikes. He is a very famous frame builder
> and mechanic in Japan. While we were putting our bikes together, the
> mdeia was there in full force watching our every move. We were also
> issued our keirin helmets, which more resemle motorbike helmets than
> bicycle helmets. One of the things that I bought was a long sleeve
> undershirt body armor with leather patches all over it. The guys who
> had races kokusai keirin before said that if you hit the deck and didn't
> have any extra protection that you wouldn't have any skin left. This is
> because keirin tracks are totally different from normal tracks. They
> are made of super gritty surface, which even allows for racing in the
> rain."
>
> "After lunch we had bike inspection. The keirin association has strict
> rules for everything. That includes the highest quality control of our
> equipment. We took our bikes to a room equipped with a funny looking
> hydraulic machine which tests the strength of the steel tubes on our
> keirin bikes. First they took a picture of our bikes. Then they
> strapped it in the hydraulic jig and measured the strength of our frames
> in every possible angle and dimension. I was relieved that my bike
> passed."
>
> Mordecai Silver
> NYC
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:15:31 -0800 (PST)
> From: Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]KOF: Rivendell is the new H.D. "Actually, Nagasawa is more
> "H-D" than Rivendell." - Joe Starck
> Message-ID: <20060316221531.378.qmail@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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>
> --- Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > --- Jerome & Elizabeth Moos
> > <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Rivendell is no doubt a very important bike
> > > in the same way as PX-10 or Paramount, in the
> > sense
> > > that they changed an industry and a little piece
> > of
> > > society overall.
> >
> > Other than this post here, who in the industry has
> > publicly attributed change in the industry to
> > Rivendell? Where's the cause-effect proof? What
> > are
> > the changes and where's the evidence?
> > Joe Starck
> > Madison, WI USA
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:01:16 -0800
> From: Brandon Ives <brandon@ivycycles.com>
> To: "cydyn@aol.com" <cydyn@sbcglobal.net>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Overlooked great builders and other musings
> Message-ID: <647BC360-B538-11DA-9478-00039356BD92@ivycycles.com>
> In-Reply-To: <20060316180948.67682.qmail@web81904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
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>
> You know I've been talking a lot off list about the show and them a
> main thing I keep coming back to is that there are really only a
> handful of folks that got the attention. Until you mentioned Roland I
> forgot he was even at the show. 17-18 years ago Roland Della Santa was
> probably to most important American builder. A lot of it had to do
> with Lemond riding his bikes but his stuff has always been stellar. I
> can't think of one other person out there that is still building
> one-at-a-time and has his pedigree. I've been fortunate to have had
> two customers in the past who's Della Santa bikes I worked on
> regularly. All I can say is great stuff.
> beat,
> Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
> Vancouver, B.C.
>
> On Thursday, Mar 16, 2006, at 10:09 US/Pacific, cydyn@aol.com wrote:
>
> > At the Nahbs show I was happy to see Roland Della
> > Santa again. Roland's built bikes for my shop since
> > the '70's and every frame has been clean, straight
> > and a jewel to ride. He's got 30 plus years of
> > experience building for top racers and his bikes are a
> > whopping bargain in the $1500-2500 price range.
> > They're not flashy, but really good. I'd rather have a
> > Della Santa custom built to order that really fits
> > than an off the shelf Rivendell with a tall stem and
> > wacky geometry.
> >
> > Many custom builders are too busy building to take
> > notice of the response by a bike-illiterate generation
> > to the latest fad bikes. Time is an expensive
> > commodity for a dedicated framebuilder who puts the
> > hours into his frames to make them special and has
> > none left over for consumer marketing.
> >
> > Steel keeps re-emerging again after about a 2year
> > cycle of Carbon, Ti and Aluminum "wonder" frames.
> > Bruce Grodon points to Rivendell as a culprit in the
> > demise of some of his market, but the nature of
> > bicycle magazines to present the "latest" every month,
> > whether it's any good or not to keep advertising,
> > readership, and the mag profitable has a bigger impact
> > than many people realize on shaping trends in the
> > Marketplace.
> >
> > Many advancements in steel technology: Prestige,
> > Metax, Super Vitus, Excel, Reynolds 753, Dedacchi, hit
> > the back burner in the late '80's when Ti and carbon
> > ruled the magazines. I remember the first Kestrel
> > frame I got in....it's advertized weight was 3.2 lbs.
> > On my Mettler P23 scale it weighed 4.21 lbs. Whoops!
> > The rear dropouts were crooked, the BB also was
> > crooked in the frame so it needed a 119mm axle instead
> > of a 114mm to keep the chain from tingling on the 52
> > chainring on any cog smaller than a 15 in
> > back...severe "Raleigh-itis" as we used to say. I sent
> > it back. John Schubert at Bicycling confessed in a
> > phone call to me that his Kestrel had the same
> > problems and broke after 6 months and that he'd heard
> > that 60 % of the original batch failed in the first
> > year. If you look back to those mid 80's editions of
> > Bicycling you can see how Kestrel got it's big push.
> >
> > It's hard to repair that kind of damage to the
> > industry as a whole.
> >
> > The early index shifting wars also brought a lot of
> > shops with knowledgable help to their knees, then
> > oblivion. From 1984 on, the groups from Shimano,
> > Suntour and Campy changed yearly to keep pace with
> > each other for market share. Your local trustworthy
> > and conscientious bike shop was stuck (and still might
> > be) with repair inventory obsoleted in one model year
> > by the next generation of wonderparts. In the mid 80's
> > the bike industry leaders wised up to the fact that by
> > changing colors and graphics every year they could
> > guarantee new sales from shops trying to keep pace.
> >
> > It's kind of interesting how the fallout from the
> > bike industry, like readers and posters on this board,
> > LOL! are gaining strength and recognition for their
> > divergence from current marketplace trends.
> >
> > Rivendell has done a good job through their
> > magazine of articulating the malaise of riders turned
> > off by the soulless fad offerings in many shops and
> > have capitalized pretty well on this phenonema. I'm
> > don't think Grant is getting rich, though. It takes a
> > lot of verbal argument to get people to buy products
> > different than those offered at your local
> > Specialized dealer.
> >
> > Another unsung builder that didn't attend the
> > NAHSB
> > is Ed Litton. Ed is an amazing and versatile builder
> > and painter. Several of Bruce Gordon's bikes sported
> > Ed's gorgeous paintwork at the show as well as other
> > builders. Ed's done some fantastic repairs and paint
> > for me on a variety of bikes: Alex Singer, Rene Herse,
> > Jack Taylor, Raleigh, Paramount, Witcomb and copied
> > the finish details of the original builder so closely
> > you can't tell it's been worked on. Ed also was a
> > noted racer in his youth and still rides a bike well.
> > He understands what kind of stays and forks
> > (suspension components) the bike needs to have when
> > you're screaming into a bumpy off-camber corner in a
> > descent with your weight off the back, arms locked to
> > hold you back and leaning on the front brake with your
> > life. He's been there, done that. Ed's prices are also
> > reasonable for the time he spends on each frame. He
> > can do fancy lugs if you want them, but that's not
> > what makes him tick. The bikes need to work.
> >
> > Enough for now, time to tickle my old '72
> > Paramount...good weather is just around the corner...
> >
> > Paul Brown
> > Cycle Dynamics
> > Santa Rosa, CA
> > 707 322-7208
> >
> >
> >
> > --- classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org wrote:
> >
> >> Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submissions to
> >> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> >> visit
> >>
> >>
> > http://www.bikelist.org/
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> >> 'help' to
> >> classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> classicrendezvous-owner@bikelist.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
> >> is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Classicrendezvous digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> CR
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: Was: Campagnolo mistake like this? Now:
> >> Price Schedules
> >> 2. Re: The best road riders in history (Jerome &
> >> Elizabeth Moos)
> >> 3. OT Polish typewriter (Was CR Items for sale)
> >> (Mary Kaminski)
> >> 4. brake pads for wood rims (Phil Sieg)
> >> 5. Re: More PX-10+ How accurate are the seatpost
> >> measurements?
> >> (John Quigley)
> >> 6. An inexpensive Campagnolo mistake item (Kevin
> >> Kruger)
> >> 7. Kevin Cooke
> >> 8. Re: Re: 5 figure bikes (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> >> 9. Re: Re: 5 figure bikes (Don Rogers)
> >> 10. Re: KOF: Rivendell is the new H.D.
> >> (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> >> 11. "Would you pay $15000 for a bicycle?" (Ken
> >> Wehrenberg)
> >> 12. Re: KOF: Rivendell is the new H.D.
> >> 13. Re: Seat post that has an expander bolt like a
> >> stem
> >> (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> >> 14. Re: KOF Marketting (brianbaylis@juno.com)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:38:47 -0500
> >> From: loudeeter@aol.com
> >> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >> Subject: Re: [CR]Was: Campagnolo mistake like this?
> >> Now: Price Schedules
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <8C81716160F6BEB-13DC-7874@FWM-R13.sysops.aol.com>
> >> In-Reply-To:
> >> <20060316064846.77402.qmail@web60420.mail.yahoo.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >> Precedence: list
> >> Message: 1
> >>
> >> Ray, your experience is the same as mine. I
> >> visited Italy in spring 1989. I was departing that
> >> summer for the U.S. after a three year tour in
> >> Germany and thought I would stock up on stuff and
> >> bring it home in my household goods--no customs, let
> >> you tax payers pay for my shipping costs!! Got to
> >> Italy and whoa, was that a shocker. The prices were
> >> more than what I would pay through the catalogs in
> >> the U.S.! I did find some nice used bicycles, but
> >> got squeamish when I started worrying about whether
> >> they might have been heavily raced bicycles. I'm
> >> not sure whether my fear was justified, but at the
> >> time, my belief was that a heavily raced bicycle
> >> might have hairline stress fractures at the joints
> >> that might not be obvious to the eye. One thing I
> >> do remember is a new Colnago model that had Super
> >> Record rear derailleur and cheaper Campagnolo parts
> >> elsewhere that was selling very cheap (in
> >> Germany)--something like $800 for a new bike.
> >> Several Americans bought them. They had fade paint
> >> with spiderweb criss-cross. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
> >>
> >>
> >> "Five second fuses only last three seconds." -
> >> Infantry Journal
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com>
> >>
> >>
> >> When I was in northern Italy in 1989, I noticed that
> >> Campagnolo component prices
> >> at the local Italian bike shops was comparable to
> >> those at US bike shops, and of
> >> course both were higher than those of catalog
> >> outfits like Nashbar and
> >> Performance. Based on that, I'm guessing that, at
> >> least starting in the late
> >> 80's, the the price schedules were applied depending
> >> on volume purchased rather
> >> than country of destination. Was it different
> >> before that, i.e, were prices
> >> really higher for the USA?
> >>
> >> Ray Dobbins
> >> Miami Florida
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 05:43:42 -0800 (PST)
> >> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos
> >> <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
> >> To: greenjersey@ntlworld.com,
> >> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >> Subject: Re: [CR]The best road riders in history
> >> Message-ID:
> >>
> > <20060316134342.8918.qmail@web82205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> >> In-Reply-To:
> >>
> > <20060316103921.YZGV28606.aamtaout02-
> > winn.ispmail.ntl.com@smtp.ntlworld.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >> MIME-Version: 1.0
> >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >> Precedence: list
> >> Message: 2
> >>
> >> I don't think you can prove who was the best, except
> >> maybe in extraordinary cases like Merckx and Beryl
> >> Burton. But comparing athletes from different eras
> >> is one of the most basic attractions of being a fan
> >> of any sport. Why do baseball fans all know the
> >> lifetime batting average of the long-dead Ty Cobb?
> >> Or how many home runs Babe Rith hit? It is exactly
> >> the difficulty of comparison that makes the
> >> comparisons compelling. How many Grand Slams would
> >> Jack Kramer, Pancho Gonzales and even Rod Laver have
> >> won if pros had then be allowed to play the Grand
> >> Slams? How many TdF would Coppi and Bartali have
> >> won had their careers not be interrupted by the war?
> >> (Or had Bartali not had to withdraw when winning a
> >> TdF just before the war because of French fans
> >> attaching the Italian riders?)
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jerry Moos
> >> Big Spring, TX
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> greenjersey@ntlworld.com wrote:
> >> Ray green wrote:
> >> Incidentally in Daniel Marszalek's "THE Best Road
> >> Riders IN History" Moser comes fifth and first
> >> Italian. Before you ask Coppi is ninth. This
> >> excellent list does, reasonably, reward a long
> >> career and Coppi didn't earn any points while a POW.
> >> Chuck Schmidt wrote:
> >> Perfect example of why these lists are always
> >> flawed. You just can't compare riders of different
> >> eras in my opinion. To me it is enough to show the
> >> dominate rider of the different eras, but to try to
> >> pick one rider as the best rider in history? Compare
> >> the top rider from one era
> >> to the top rider from another? Silly...
> >> Ray Green replies:
> >> I think that the only thing wrong with Daniel
> >> Marszalek's list is the title. If it was called "The
> >> Winningest Road Rider in History" any objections
> >> would be removed. Like most lists it gives points
> >> for wins. Daniel has a really comprehensive and
> >> sensible scheme. It awards points that relate to the
> >> value of the race at the time. So Paris-Brussels for
> >> instance earns big points for the period when it was
> >> a Classic but less now that it is a fish and
> >> chipper.
> >> Conversely the San Sebastian Classic gets less
> >> points during the period when it was a Basque
> >> domestic race and more when it was a World Cup race.
> >> For me it is an objective assessment of the worth of
> >> riders' palmares.
> >> Finally I cannot agree that it is impossible to say
> >> who is the best. Whoever your favourite is, from
> >> whatever era, there are other possibilities as the
> >> best. If you choose Coppi an arguement can be made
> >> for Bartali. If you choose Hinault you must consider
> >> Kelly and Lemond but if you choose Eddy Merckx there
> >> is no nobody as a possible contender. The Special
> >> One is unique, he is simply the Best Cyclist Ever.
> >>
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:27:54 -0800 (PST)
> From: Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Bottom line, KOF - Extended Headlugs...pre-84 bikes/Nervex...
> Message-ID: <20060316222754.759.qmail@web34312.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <20060316181006.65016.qmail@web60414.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 7
>
> --- Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I know there are a lot of forums on the internet
> > concerning bikes, but I think that the twelve
> > hundred or so members of this list are it for
> > classic "pre '84 " bikes.
>
> Bring on talk and pics of some of my most favorite
> classics: a certain era of old Paramounts; I wish
> one of Joe Bell's good customers, Jim Haile, would
> post talk and pics of his. And, a more useful and
> enlightening analogy to Harley-Davidson should be: as
> H-D is to it's industry, Nervex is to its.
> Joe Starck
> Madison, WI USA
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 22:43:25 -0000
> From: "Peter Brown" <peterg.brown@ntlworld.com>
> To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Subject: [CR]More frames listed on ebay
> Message-ID: <000701c6494b$0d686c80$8d616c51@nonefpfvwek4mv>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Message: 8
>
> List members may be interested in 2 framesets I have listed on ebay, a
> Viking Hosteller which ends on Sunday, and a Bill Hurlow lugged Condor
> track/path which ends a week on Sunday. You can find them with my user
> name
> of petmarbro.
>
>
>
> Peter Brown, Lincolnshire, England
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:43:34 -0800
> From: "Kurt Sperry" <haxixe@gmail.com>
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]KOF Extended head tube
> Message-ID: <75d04b480603161443x19b1377bm4c45f338a1cc90da@mail.gmail.com>
> In-Reply-To:
<031620062117.5354.4419D5E200010E35000014EA22007507840BCC050B019D@comcast.net>
> References:
<031620062117.5354.4419D5E200010E35000014EA22007507840BCC050B019D@comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: kurt@fineartscrimshaw.com
> Message: 9
>
> I think it's obvious that a proper fit and a great riding frame can
> be accomplished either way. R Sachs wrote me explaining that (papraphrasin
> g
> here) he does it primarily because modern saddles, stems and headsets deman
> d
> it and he doesn't want to be constained by needing relatively hard to find
> parts to build his frames up.
>
> Kurt Sperry
> Bellingham WA
>
>
> On 3/16/06, rodk3d@comcast.net <rodk3d@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > 3 very busy framebuilders off the top of my head that do extended
> > headtubes are Rivendell, Sachs, and Kirk. Posts I have read on multiple
> > forums all gush over the comfort and quality of the rides these builder's
> > frames provide. Some may not care for the look, but each builder has far
> too
> > many satisfied customers for me to believe each doesn't know how to prope
> rly
> > size a frame.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Rod Kronenberg
> > Fort Collins, CO
>
>
>
>
> --
> > fineartscrimshaw.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:56:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Joe Starck <josephbstarck@yahoo.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: Re: [CR]Re: 5 figure bikes Rebecca Twigg's $10,000 bike...
> Message-ID: <20060316225605.20513.qmail@web34313.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> In-Reply-To: <70e14d4c0603160118n4584f3c8hf897a82af09e0021@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Precedence: list
> Message: 10
>
> --- Angel Garcia <veronaman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > These prices are commanded because the best
> > marketing is what the pros ride
> > .
> > Of course, 99% of the cycling population does not
> > need what a pro needs but
> > that's never stopped anyone from wanting what the
> > pros ride. It's just the
> > way it is.
> >
> > BTW, are there any other KOF builders other than
> > Richard Sachs that sponsor
> > s
> > a pro (I think it's a pro) team?
> >
> > Angel Garcia
> > Verona (Verona), Italy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > What amaes me is how a Ti bike with a carbon
> > back
> > > end sells for $8000.00 for the frame...there isn't
> > 250
> > > plus hours in it...but awfully good marketing!
> > >
> > > Paul Brown
> > > Cycle Dynamics
> > > Santa Rosa, CA
> > > 707 322-7208
>
> In the mid-nineties I helped out Rebecca Twigg over
> the span of a couple days and fell in love with her
> and out of love with her several months later.(Or did
> it take a couple years to forget her? I forget.) She
> had what was then summed up as a $10,000 all-titanium
> pursuit frame. I replaced the ti fork with a steel
> one. She chose the offset based on my fitting her
> Passoni with an adjustable-rake fork made by Bill
> Holland; whereby I allowed her to ride around the San
> Diego Velodrome with the different rake settings. Let
> me tell you guys something: riding around with her
> that day tapped enough testosterone in me to get her
> to comment that I was pulling her "pretty fast." Ha!
> Try keeping up with me now -- now that I'm 10 years
> older and 20 years younger.
> Joe Starck
> Madison, WI USA
> (Verona: home of Juliet's balcony)
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:02:59 -0800 (GMT-08:00)
> From: chasds@mindspring.com
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]re: extended head-tubes
> Message-ID:
<15019838.1142550179737.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Precedence: list
> Reply-To: chasds@mindspring.com
> Message: 11
>
> Rod wrote, in part:
>
> Some may not care
> for the look, but each builder has far too many satisfied customers for me to
believe
> each doesn't know how to properly size a frame.
>
> cheers,
> Rod Kronenberg
> Fort Collins, CO
>
> ************
>
> The issue is getting the bars higher. If a "slightly" taller frame will get the
bars up higher and
> be a good ride, why not? Aesthetically, it's more pleasing. size a frame "right"
for most people,
> and if you want the bars higher relative to the saddle, you either have to have an
extended head-tube, or your have to use a long-quill stem, as we all know.
>
> My experience suggests that extended head-tubes or long-quill stems on frames that
are
> "sized right" result in a ride that is not quite as pleasant as you'd get if you
just got a slightly
> bigger, older-style road frame with no extended head-tube and raised the bars to
the same height relative to the saddle as you would on the smaller frame by other
means.
>
> As has been pointed out many times on this list--and by Grant Peterson--up to about
1964, when
> Eddy Merckx started raising his saddle much higher relative to the bars to get
> more power, frames even for racers were a little taller, and bars were closer
> to the height of the saddle as a result.
>
> the lower bars, higher saddle position is certainly better for racing, esp. short
> races like criteriums, at least in my experience, but for any other riding it's
more
> comfortable to get the bars up a little higher. And if that's what someone wants,
> why not get a little taller frame, and do it the way the old guys did it?
>
> Charles "getting to be an old guy myself" Andrews
> SoCal
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> End of Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 39, Issue 85
> *************************************************