BINGO!
Dave, that's "Fairdinkem"
that's the pulse, right there!
Cheers Dazza
http://www.llewellynbikes.com
<internet-bob@bikelist.org> Cc: <framebuilders@phred.org>; <touring@phred.org>; <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 8:39 AM Subject: RE: [Frame] RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated)
> Bruce,
>
> I understand what you are saying. I agree and sympathize with most of
> it. I did my time in the trenches of a local Mom 'n' Pop bike shop,
> barely paying the bills for a number of years. Unfortunately, I don't
> have many realistic suggestions to remedy your situation.
>
> In defense of Surly, I must point out that we are more than a marketing
> company. We design and ride everything that we market and sell. Our
> products aren't relabeled items pulled from the Taiwan "big book of bike
> stuff". And, we are as passionate about bikes as you are. If pricing
> was based on passion, our products would be grossly underpriced.
>
> But, I can't offer my customers custom colors, custom geometries, or
> custom braze-ons. I can't customize our racks to fit every frame. I
> can't offer lugs, or fillet instead of TIG. That's where you come in.
> Comparing a Long Haul Trucker to a Bruce Gordon is apples and oranges.
> Surly is the gateway drug to the Gordons, Sachs, and Vanillas. Most
> cyclists aren't going to plunk down cash for a custom until they've
> ridden something lower-priced...like a Surly offering. Love us or hate
> us, Surly gets people on well-made, well-designed bikes that bring the
> fun back to cycling. Some of those people might buy a Bruce Gordon down
> the line after they have figured out what they like and dislike about
> their Surly.
>
> For the record, I don't feel dirty...well, at least not because of any
> secrets. I might feel a little gritty because I rode Pugsley through
> snow and mud on the way into the office.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Dave Gray
> Surly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: framebuilders-bounces@phred.org
> [mailto:framebuilders-bounces@phred.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Gordon
> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 3:05 PM
> To: 'Mann, Dave'; internet-bob@bikelist.org
> Cc: framebuilders@phred.org; touring@phred.org;
> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [Frame] RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and
> opinionated)
>
> Sorry about the cross posting - But, I thought this might be interesting
> to people who do not subscribe to all the groups
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mann, Dave [mailto:damann@mitre.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:15 AM
> To: bgcycles@svn.net; internet-bob@bikelist.org
> Subject: RE: [BOB] NAHBS Thoughts (late and long and opinionated)
>
>
> """""While I find this to be very interesting, I'm not sure what
> to do with this information. Perhaps I'm confused with what
> your desired affect is with putting this information out."""""
>
> Someone asked my purpose in writing about this.
> I'm writing to expose "the dirty little secret of the bike biz", that no
> one
> wants to talk about.
> First I want to commend Don for the show. It was the most unique
> gathering
> I have been to in my 35 years in the bike business, it was also the most
> troubling.
> I write this because I think most of the visitors are totally unaware of
> the
> plight of the small builder.
> First - I really like bikes, I like making them, I like thinking about
> them,
> I like riding them - I hate the bike business. Like many of you - I
> might
> say that I am passionate about bikes.
> One of the most disturbing moments of the weekend was when I was having
> dinner at the hotel after spending an exhausting day at the show talking
> to
> people. A builder whom I really respect, who has been building about as
> long as I have, quietly ordered a bowl of soup. I could tell it was not
> because he was not hungry - it was because entrees were $15 to $20.
> In the last 18 months I have been to 5 shows like the NAHBS. Don's show
> in
> San Jose was the biggest. I have been to the Velo Rendezvous in
> Pasadena 2
> times, the Cirque in North Carolina, and the Handmade Bike Fair in Tokyo
> Japan. In each show except the NAHBS I have won first place awards for
> my
> bikes. I am humbled and honored by the awards. However, it has cost
> over
> $20,000 with almost no sales. I have sold 3 frames in the last 16
> years. I
> was hoping to sell some of the prize winners at the NAHBS show to recoup
> some of my expenses. No luck (they are still all for sale) and I spent
> $2000 to attend and display.
> Making the fancy lugged frames bikes is very therapeutic for me. It
> gets me
> back to my roots.
> At the NAHBS I got to talk to some builders I have known and admired for
> 30+
> years. We talked bikes, but we also talked business. I handed out an
> anonymous questionnaire I had printed up about the business. Some of
> the
> answers might shock you. The first question was "what should a
> competent
> frame builder earn a year?" The most common answer was $40,000 to
> $50,000
> per year - certainly not Greedy. I have a 30 year old friend who is a
> Union
> Plumber who just turned Journeyman. He just started a job in San
> Francisco
> doing copper piping in a new Condominium at $43 per hour + health
> coverage +
> retirement. I should have been a plumber. I could have afforded to go
> the
> Plumbing Shows and show off my fancy edged carved Copper plumbing
> fittings.
> I found in the questionnaire that no one including the well known small
> builders even made $35,000. Most were about $20,000, which is where I
> fit
> in. I asked if they could ever retire on their current income -
> everyone
> replied NO. As for health insurance - 75% had no insurance, or if they
> had
> insurance - most had it through their spouse.
> When I started building in 1974 with Albert Eisentraut he would say:
> "You
> won't get rich building frames, but, you can make a living."
> For the first 28 years of my business I could always afford an employee,
> that has not been the case for the last 4 years. Even working alone I
> have
> had to dip into my personal savings to pay the bills. If sales stay the
> same, I have 1 or 2 more years left before my savings are gone.
> Most of my business for the last 16 years has been making more
> utilitarian
> TIG welded touring frames and racks. But even those TIGed bike sales
> have
> dropped from 60 to 70 bikes a year to 25 last year. Is it because my
> stuff
> is lousy?? I don't think so. I think I make pretty good, reasonably
> priced
> touring stuff.
> What has happened is that the business has been taken over by what I
> call
> "Marketers". People who have discovered that "Why make it yourself if
> you
> can have it made overseas for a lot less?". That way you can spend more
> on
> marketing, which seems to work better. Fine, some will say, THAT IS
> CAPITALISM!. But, something to think about is this. Over the past 30
> odd
> years I have seen many innovations in the bike biz. Almost all were
> from 1
> to 3 person shops. A couple that come to mind are Merlin, the first
> viable
> Titanium frames (early TI attempts, Teledyne, etc. just did not work)
> and
> especially Mountain Bikes. Now, if you go into a bike shop - 90 to 95%
> of
> Mountain Bikes are made in Taiwan or China. If we were to wait for the
> Taiwanese or Chinese to invent the Mountain Bike - we would still be
> waiting.
> One of my most vivid memories of my first trip to France in the late
> 1980's
> was that it was a country that almost everyone drove French cars. Not
> because they were the best, they weren't (they have vastly improved
> since),
> but because they were built by French people, and they liked to support
> their own industry.
> What has hurt my business the most are the Rivendells, Surlys, Somas,
> Kogswells, etc. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE QUALITY OF THEIR
> PRODUCTS!!!!!
> When Rivendell started - they were only going to be made in USA, then,
> maybe
> some made in Japan, then, OK maybe some from Taiwan. It is a slippery
> slope, and there is NO chairlift back to the top of the mountain.
> For me in California, I cannot compete with a $249 wholesale Surly
> Touring
> frame. I know the argument - we are better in the USA doing the
> designing
> and outsourcing the production. B.S. - People in India, Taiwan and
> China
> have the same computers we have. In fact, my Hewlett Packard computer
> as
> made in China. They also have people who can use them. The only jobs
> that
> can not be outsourced are the jobs pouring your coffee at Starbucks, and
> the
> job wearing an "Orange Apron" and saying - "Welcome to Home Depot".
> That gets me back to the question of why I wrote the original post. If
> we
> want to have the passionate, small, innovative builders - we have to
> start
> buying from them. We need to buy from the people who are passionate
> about
> building them, NOT just from the passionate people who Market them. I
> doubt
> that the factory workers in Taiwan, or China, etc. are passionate about
> bikes like you are.
>
> If you got this far - thanks for reading and letting me get this off my
> chest.
> Regards,
> Bruce Gordon
> Bruce Gordon Cycles
> http://www.bgcycles.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Subscribe/unsubscribe or retrieve password at:
> http://www.phred.org/
> Archives: http://www.phred.org/
> Archive Search: http://search.bikelist.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Subscribe/unsubscribe or retrieve password at:
> http://www.phred.org/
> Archives: http://www.phred.org/
> Archive Search: http://search.bikelist.org/