Hi Is it possible to re-sent me issues 39-41 of volume 39? Somehow they disappeared before I could read them. Bruce's discussion and responses are quite interesting to me.
Paul Brown cydyn@sbcglobal.net
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Bruce Gordons Rant - WE ARE TO BLAME? 2. Re: WE ARE TO BLAME- a challenge? (Michael Wilkinson) 3. Bruce Gordon (Arthur Link) 4. RE: Bruce Gordons Rant - WE ARE TO BLAME? (brianbaylis@juno.com) 5. KOF/Rivendell (Philip Easton) 6. Blight of handmade frame builder (charles nighbor) 7. Re: Bruce's post, "We are to blame," etc. (Steve Maas) 8. Re: pinned joints 9. Motivation for buying a bike (kim klakow) 10. Saxon Twin Tube on Ebay (Toni Theilmeier) 11. Re: Blight of handmade frame builder (brianbaylis@juno.com) 12. Re: Bruce's post, "We are to blame," etc. (brianbaylis@juno.com) 13. Front der mate to SIMPLEX SX610 rear der? (Pete Geurds) 14. Bruce Gordon/design, functional art, marketing musings (Ken Wehrenberg) 15. Art & Bicycles
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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 11:22:47 -0500 From: mmeison@aol.com To: brandon@ivycycles.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Bruce Gordons Rant - WE ARE TO BLAME? Message-ID: <8C811ACD660FB66-1E0C-84A3@FWM-D02.sysops.aol.com> In-Reply-To: <436610E2-AF85-11DA-8808-00039356BD92@ivycycles.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1
I don't disagree that there is a difference in perception between Bruce's bikes and Richard's bikes in terms of what the cycling public believe they need. That is where I see magazines, internet discussions, and bike shops needing to step up and say "not everyone needs a race geometry bike". As I stated Cycling Plus is the only mainstream magazine that routinely reviews touring geometry bikes (and if we see them we want them, right?) and giving creedence to audax, touring or real life commuting. as for manufacterers, a good example would be Serotta's Rapid Tour Geometry, a bit more relaxed than a full blown race geometry but still fast paced. I doubt 20% of the people who know the name Serotta know about Rapid Tour, and that's the real problem in perception (IMHO).
Marty Eison Frisco, Texas
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 09:29:51 -0700 From: "Michael Wilkinson" To: Subject: [CR]Re: WE ARE TO BLAME- a challenge? Message-ID: <000201c64396$b1bdf710$1601a8c0@pengo> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 2
Ok, so there are appox 1500 or so on the list. A lot more that are interested in classic bikes made the classic way. And Bruce has only built a few customs in the last few years? Now, Sachs makes a great point about the cow not giving milk. But, didn't he start milking the cow due to a lack of demand? I think Bruce even threw down a challenge to the list several years ago to put their money where there mouths were. He was even going to throw in a free button :) Last I heard he had no takers.
Everybody talks about marketing of the big manufactures but it's just as important, maybe more important for the small framebuilders since they don't have brand name recognition. Richie is out front because he works hard at it. And, the big plus is he builds bikes and sponsors teams which leads to more visibility and brand recognition.
I know next to nothing about marketing, and I am sure someone on the list can expand on it. Or offer their services to Bruce. I don't even know where I am going with this.
Except to say I agree with Guy Apple. We are living in a time where American frame building and art are at a nexus. What they are building today will be the classics of tomorrow. Not the same way as yesterdays steel is but nonetheless.
I do have a production Rivendell, and Kogswell for that matter... But, I also have a couple of babies on the way. And once I get them I will be looking for another American made custom builder to spend my money on.
So, the challenge is this. If 10 percent of us on the list ordered custom frames tomorrow with the built in wait times I am sure we could keep some of our favorite local builder busy and at the same time save the money to pay for it! Go with the guys under the radar too. You might be surprise!
Mike Wilkinson Castle Rock, CO ------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:24:55 -0800 (PST) From: Arthur Link To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Bruce Gordon Message-ID: <20060309162455.97300.qmail@web33612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Reply-To: artlink@flash.net Message: 3
OOOps! Sorry Bruce,(not Bian) a senior momenr! Art Link, San Antonio,Tx
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:26:38 GMT From: "brianbaylis@juno.com"
To: mmeison@aol.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: RE: [CR] Bruce Gordons Rant - WE ARE TO BLAME? Message-ID: <20060309.082723.11238.584370@webmail39.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 4
Marty,
You are correct, the difference IS marking. In any business and in life in general "marketing is everything". One must direct ones efforts to th e place where the potential customers are. So why would one be written u p in a non cycling magazine? Reason is that the clientele he is seeking aren't really cyclists of the type we consider most of ourselves. His cl ients are looking for "image" and Richie provides that for them. Even in the waiting period ther is marketing. That's how successful business ar e marketed.
I can't speak for Bruce, but his approach should work for his circumstan ces, so something needs tweeking.
In my case I'm actually the opposite of this approach. I try to discoura ge the image seekers and ferret out the people who are really seeking ou t my work because of who I am and what I do. I market a bicycle that is the product of one persons beliefs, skills, and experience without feedi ng the image thing. I build bikes differently in a drastic way than many builders and I do it almost exclusively for my own satisfaction. I get my thrill out of making things. Unfortunately I have to sell some of the stuff for obvious practical reasons. I would befar happier if I could just build whatever my heart desires and create things of beauty and of lasting function and value based on what I felt I wanted to learn more a bout and what I felt like expressing at any given time. Until the return of patrons of artists and craftsmen, I will have to do it the hard way.
The sales/marketing aspect of being a framebuilder is not exactly cut an d dried. One has to work at it and develope a niche and then work within that. One can change and expand (or become more specialized); but one s till needs to operate within certain boundries. The market for handmade bikes is actually quite small, it shouldn't be that hard to work within it, and yet it ain't easy.
Brian Baylis La Mesa, CA
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
To start let me say right off the bat that my only connection to the bicycle industry is through my wallet.
That said I sit here and wonder what is the difference between say a Bruce Gordon and a Richard Sachs? For the sake of arguement (and reality) framebuilding skills should be taken out of the equation as both are artisans (ableit in different mediums). e-RICHIE© is all over the place, he is in magazines (and not just
cycling magazines), he is on websites (i.e. campy only), he is participating on various internet forums. Other than his own web site, I really can't recall seeing Bruce's work advertized, written up, reviewed in quite a while. Marketing. Richard has something like a 4 or 5 year waiting list, yet people still pony up even though there are other just as skilled and gifted framebuilders starving for work. I really think that the small builder has to promote themselves in order
to survive, it's this exposure in the media other than the
framebuilders list or here that get the names out there. Just out of curiousity I'd ask how
much increase in contact did Brian receive after Bicycling© wrote that small piece on his operation? And that leads me to my final point. Back in the 70's and 80's I would
read these wonderful articles about custom builders in magazines like
Bicycling© (Before it became an MTV soundbite) and Bicycle Guide and I wanted
those bikes. I knew who was building custom frames, whether they were race geometry
or full blown tourers. We just don't have those magazines anymore, and with
the exception of Cycling Plus one hardly sees any write ups on touring
bikes, its all go fast carbon fibre (at least as far as the magazines
available both commercially and locally). The CR lister who reads VBQ and Rivendell Reader already
knows, or has a pretty good idea about, the small artisan builders, it's the
general cycling public who needs the education.
Marty Eison Frisco, Texas
_______________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:33:59 -0800 From: Philip Easton To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]KOF/Rivendell Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060309081645.01fd3ab8@inmail.tcsn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 5
Hi all, Last time I looked Grant at Rivendell Bicycle Works would still make a KOF type made in the USA frame for you, although there was a wait, but no more that when having a frame refinished by Argos. Grant is one of the very few that I have met up with (thru his Catalog/Riv. Reader) in today's bike trade whose whole attitude is one that I can closely identify with. This of course means he is basically 50 or so years behind the times. Just sign up for a years worth of the Rivedell Reader and see what I mean. As far as not buying new frames, I am covered since I have a modern Bates built by Ron Cooper, and which by the way cost about the same as buying and refinishing a 1956 Holdsworth Whirlwind that I have also. Not affiliated with Rivendell, or related to Grant by blood, marriage, adoption, etc., only in spirit. TaTa for now. Phil Easton
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 08:39:01 -0800 From: "charles nighbor" To: Subject: [CR]Blight of handmade frame builder Message-ID: <002f01c64397$f9049e70$71bffea9@CharlesNighbor> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6
I just read Bruce Gordon's email to Classic Rendezvous about the financial blight of handmade frame builders here in the USA. I agree it is a tough choice to be an artisan and have it be your main source of funds. However as an Architect and having been in that processional field since 1958 I have the perspective to view the total artisan and art field. Those fields has never been one to chase money. It is a work of love for ideas and dreams that far surpass any monetary gains. To dream of a new building design or a great touring bicycle like Brian Baylis did and built and displayed at the 2006 NAHBS far exceeds the lure of dollars. To be alive and be able to dream and to be able to execute those dreams is what life is about. Charles Nighbor, Architect Walnut Creek, CA
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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 08:58:33 -0800 From: Steve Maas To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Bruce's post, "We are to blame," etc. Message-ID: <44105EB9.2090701@mail.nonlintec.com> In-Reply-To: <440FAFD2.2030805@mail.nonlintec.com> References:
<440FAFD2.2030805@mail.nonlintec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 7
One last rant on this subject.
Yesterday I took my chrome Rossi out for a spin, ended up at a bagel place in Manhattan Beach, an affluent seaside area, for lunch. A couple people saw my bike, asked me about it, and admired it. This happens almost every time I go out on one of the classic bikes--literally, almost every time! People in cars stop beside me at traffic lights and ask about whatever bike I'm riding. I get toots of the horn from drivers and a thumbs-up sign. And so on.
There is obviously a lot of appreciation for elegant, classic design and construction that shows a high level of aesthetics and craftsmanship. Here in LA, for sure, there are plenty of people with the money to buy high-end frames, and there is no lack of willingness to spend it. There is no need to expect people to support KOF efforts because of a sense of charity and good will, which, we all know, is just not going to happen, and certainly is not a valid basis for a business. The problem is to tap into that market. I'm not sure how to do that, but it seems obvious to me that this is the key to making a business out of high-end frame work.
Steve Maas Long Beach, California
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 12:04:56 EST From: Philcycles@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]pinned joints Message-ID: <26c.71262a3.3141ba38@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 8
In a message dated 3/9/06 5:14:01 AM, mail@woodworkingboy.com writes:
>It is not particularly fun to have to go repair a joint with
>pins in it.
Hun? Just drill them out. No problem. Phil Brown Done it a few times but not in San Rafael, Calif. ------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:09:08 +0100 (MET) From: "kim klakow" To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Motivation for buying a bike Message-ID: <5049.1141924148@www052.gmx.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 9
The one thing KOFs have to battle with, though, is that nobody won the 1949 Worlds with one of them.
Also probably 90% of the bike purchases on this list are motivated by the want to own a piece of history, the fulfillment of a youth dream or the like. No matter how good a KOF is, s/he will not be able to fill those boots.
Faliero Masi surely thought he made solid and graceful handywork, but would probably shake his head at the prices his bikes are fetching today. I have met several builders of the older generation who do the same ("It's just a bike").
kim
"some people like chocolate ice cream, some vanilla"
-- Kim Klakow
Diplom Grafik Designer Akimbo71@gmx.net +49172-1786481 Berlin - Germany
Bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten sparen: GMX SmartSurfer!
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:14:21 +0100 From: Toni Theilmeier To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Saxon Twin Tube on Ebay Message-ID: <26817A97-AF90-11DA-9856-0050E49E894D@t-online.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v613) Precedence: list Message: 10
The magic words "Saxon Twin Tube" have brought me to have a look at an
electric auction, and lo and behold the frame is pre-WWII from what I know.
Apart from everything that has been said to date it, it has a short "seat tube", which makes it a genuine Saxon. These were built only in 1939 and 1940, as I have been lead to believe by several sources, one of them a catalogue copy I have. The later Claud Butler versions had a
longer seat pin sleeve, or whatever you would like to call it.
Also, the tell-tale "button"-shaped seat stay top points at the late thirties. Then again, there´s no headclip.
If anyone would like a comparison, my own TT is on wooly somewhere under .../toni. Large pic in the starostneradost folder. (No, I´m not
renaming this folder - the speakers of Russian among you will know why.)
Regards, Toni Theilmeier, Belm, Germany.
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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:18:54 GMT From: "brianbaylis@juno.com"
To: cnighbor@pacbell.net Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Blight of handmade frame builder Message-ID: <20060309.091957.11238.585060@webmail39.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 11
Charles,
Your words are true to some extent, but realisticly very few people can pull it off and survive. I'm surviving and I quite, quite happy with lif e in general. It doesn't come from the "finincial rewards" of my busines s, that much is for certain. But if the purpose of life is to be happy a nd satisfied with ones accomplisments thus far and to have respect and f riends, then I arrived a long time ago. To be honest, one of the greates t rewards is to be amongst my contempories; people like Paul Sadhoff, Ma rk Nobelette, Roland Della Santa, Richard Sachs, Peter Weigle, Peter Joh nson, Ed Litton, Jeff Lyon, Glenn Erickson, Tom Kellog, etc., and the ol d other timers I can't bring to mind off hand. We all do things a little differently and for slightly different reasons. Get to know the person and the framebuilder and you will see that each is a giant in the field but we are all different. There is no better amongst us, it's all a matt er of what is the difference. Look for that.
Brian Baylis
La Mesa, CA
I just read Bruce Gordon's email to Classic Rendezvous about the
financial blight of handmade frame builders here in the USA. I agree it
is a tough choice to be an artisan and have it be your main source of
funds. However as an Architect and having been in that processional
field since 1958 I have the perspective to view the total artisan and
art field. Those fields has never been one to chase money. It is a work
of love for ideas and dreams that far surpass any monetary gains. To
dream of a new building design or a great touring bicycle like Brian
Baylis did and built and displayed at the 2006 NAHBS far exceeds the
lure of dollars. To be alive and be able to dream and to be able to
execute those dreams is what life is about.
Charles Nighbor, Architect Walnut Creek, CA
_______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:33:53 GMT From: "brianbaylis@juno.com"
To: stevem@mail.nonlintec.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Bruce's post, "We are to blame," etc. Message-ID: <20060309.093409.11238.585241@webmail39.lax.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 12
Steve,
I'll say it again. Marketing is everything; always has been and always w ill be. Politics is marketing, more so than ever. Marketing is marketing , and more so now than ever. The science of marketing has probably been taken to the "highest level" by the government and political spin doctor
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