Many thanks to Doug for bringing a bit of science to what was turning into a 'how many angels can you fit on the head of a pin' discussion. I personally don't put a lot of store on frame weight and believe geometry and stiffness are more significant factors in ride quality. By that I mean how easy it is to climb hills? I have a few old British classics but have recently bought a 1992 Hetchins (Bob Jackson) and two Jarvis Flying Gates. Compared to my 1952 Vade Mecum Hetchins the Scorpion Bonum flies up hills. I hasten to add that I do not believe this is down to the fancy lugs! It has a stiffer feel and just feels easier to pedal. As a retired mechanical engineer I would love to be able to explain what I mean, scientifically, but I can't. The Flying Gates are superb machines and I am looking forward to many summer miles on them. They are old design but modern machines and seem to share the Hetchin's climbing ability. So, on to the problems of KOF builders in the States. As has been stated at length, marketing is the key if you are to persuade the buyers to pay a premium for a handbuilt frame. We are talking niche markets here and you are appealing to wealthy buyers. Good websites are important, but publicity and distinguishing features are also key. Surely one of the reasons for curly stays/forks is an identifiable image? I felt for Bob Gordon when he described his plight, but Bob, look at your website. Amusing to a point, but if I was to buy one of your frames I would really like to see an image of you with a brazing torch and a frame. Dump the robot send-up, it doesn't work.
Nigel Land North Lincolnshire England
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 11:34:55 -0500 From: Doug Fattic <fatticbicycles@qtm.net> To: "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]weights of classic and modern frames Message-ID: <C03714DF.7764%fatticbicycles@qtm.net> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 1
The discussion about the weight of "classic" vs. "contemporary" frames reminds me of the apocryphal story I heard (probably a sermon illustration from some struggling seminary student) about Greek scholars in an argument about how many teeth are in a horses mouth - everybody wanted a say but nobody wanted to actually go count them in a real horse. Well I've got som e of both (frames, not horses teeth or Greek philosophers) in process of bein g repainted (or just hanging around) in my frame shop. Here is what my sprin g weight said (disclaimer - it measures to the closest 25 grams and doesn't match the quality of a digital scale):
My 1972 Masi Gran Criterium - Reynolds tubing - 56 c-c. 2000 grams twin platted fork 750
My wife's 1973 Curly Hetchins - 531 - 54.5 c-c 2000 fork 750
80's Mercian - 753 - 54 c-c 1825 fork 600
80's lugged Trek - 531 main - 55 cm 2200 fork 725
Early 50's Ellis-Briggs - 531 - 56.5 cm 2000 fork 725
Rossin - Columbus? - 54 cm 2100 no fork
70's Maseratti - Columbus SP - 61 cm 2375 fork 850
80's Colnago - Columbus? - 56.5 cm 2050 fork 750
Peter Mooney - Columbus SP? - 59.5 2425 fork 750
Tommasini - tubing? - 59 cm 2025 fork (no Columbus bird or other marking) 725
80's Jack Taylor - 531 touring - 52 cm 2300 fork 750
1949 Claud Butler - 531? - 52 cm 1725 fork 700 (this frame has a 76s head angle with 2.5 in of rake!)
My 1992 Doug Fattic - Tange Prestige (.7/.4/.7) - 56.5 1550 fork (650c) 625
Doug Fattic - 853 (.8/.5./8) (1.125"tt & 1.25 dt) - 60 1825 Reynolds Ouzo Pro carbon fork 400
2005 DeRosa all Carbon ($4000 retail) 1450
28 0z. Filled water bottle 800
The difference in the quality of work was also mentioned between the classi c European builders and the modern KOF (Keeper of the Flame) builders. This difference is huge. I've visited many frame shops in England, France, Ital y and Japan in the 70's both before and after I learned framebuilding at Elli s Briggs. We (American builders) silver braze frames utilizing expensive fixtures and other tooling and file the joints to a higher standard (at least in Niles, Michigan) then the shops doing brass brazing I visited in Europe. This isn't to say their weren't some really fine frames being made oversees and some poor ones here. It is just that the standard of quality keeps rising for making a steel frames compared to what was done 30 years ago anywhere.
Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan