The best handling and riding frame that I have, keep in mind I am only 5' 5" 130lb is my Bates BAR with Cantiflex 531 tubing and Diadrant forks, this is, as you ALL know cigar shaped tubing, could this be what Bates was trying to do make the top tube stiffer??? this is also the lightest frame that I have, a few onces lighter that the 1948 Holdworth ARC Welder(,LaQuelda), this frame with a 75 headangle is VERY squirly, if out of the saddle on the hoods climbing etc, WHY???? the Mercian that I am bringing to Le Cirque has the narrow deep drop bars, I think GB Ventoux with fancy schamcy engraving, but this I think is a true Timetrail bike, I also have a photo of me with a bike that was made in Brum with bars tilted like we have all been talking about, I only taped from the brake lever down on both sides, so this means that is where I rode most of time, on the drops, it also shows the bars chopped off per my previous post. Anyone interested I will Email the photo, I was about 17 yrs old, Cheers John Crump Olditsallaboutthebreathingstupid!Brit, Parker Co, USA