Brandon,
I couldn't agree more. I have upwards of twenty pre-1982, 531/753 bikes with Campy Nuovo/Super Record. I also have a Weigle Randoneuse with OS tubing and a Crumpton SL CF Uber-bike. The KOF Weigle is much more similar in ride, equipment and geometry with the Crumpton than with the on-topic pre-1982 bikes. I love to ride them all but if I'm riding far I take the Weigle, it's comfy. If I want to go fast I take the Crumpton, it's 15 lbs and surprisingly comfy too. If it's just a club ride less than 50 miles I'll take a Raleigh Team or the Masi twin-plate. I love the old bikes and will never quit riding them but the KOF distinction is lost on me. If I'm buying a new bike I want it hand-made with quality and a careful attention to detail and made to fit like it was born underneath me. Also, the design should be consistent with the purpose. I use the Weigle for brevets. I use the Crumpton to race. I don't care if it has lugs or not, OS tubing or not, steel, Ti, CF or whatever. Craftmanship, fit and function are more important to me than replicating the look of 40-year old steel lugged bikes. BTW, Nick's workmanship is out of this world! If he built a CF randoneuse with CF racks and fenders he might find a patron in me. Heresy, I know. May the torch holders forgive me my sins
George Allen Lexington, Ky
At 10:40 PM 9/14/2006, Brandon Ives wrote:
>Roman I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'll guess that the difference
>you're referring to is between pre and post 1983 bikes, a.k.a. classic and
>KOF bikes. Besides one falling before the list cut-off time and the other
>after there are other major differences. For these differences you need
>to look beyond the lugs and paint.
>
>Take a few bikes from the 60s and measure the chainstay length, seat and
>head angles, bottom bracket height/drop, fork rake, tubing diameter, etc.
>Now go dig up a few different KOF bikes and do the same thing, the
>differences will then be obvious.
>
>It's a slippery slope to start saying, 'Oh, oversize tubes are ok as long
>as they have lugs.' What if Nick Crumpton started making CF lugs for his
>bikes? His tubes aren't any larger than any of the OS KOF frames. I'll
>tell you Nick could make a bike from CF with faux-lugs that once it was
>painted you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference from a KOF frame at a
>glance. In the end wouldn't it be a KOF bike in relation to the Exxon
>Graftek which is considered a classic bike. Or maybe if I take some of
>Kirk's lugs and Hank's dropouts and connect them with carbon tubes
>wouldn't that be a KOF frame.
>
>Again this all comes back to what I was saying earlier about it all being
>about the aesthetic and not about the ride. Last I checked the list
>wasn't about lugs in specific, it's about bikes built before 1983. It's
>not about bikes now, it's about bikes then. The differences between pre
>and post 1993 bikes are less and less the closer you get to the line, but
>the further you move the larger the differences get. The only thing that
>is really KOF is the look. Hope this helped clarify a bit.
>best,
>Brandon"monkeyman"Ives
>Coeur d'Alene, ID.
>
>
> > Brandon Said:
> >
> >>This is also another reason why I think the KOF term is bunk. 99% of
> >>modern KOF bikes are nothing like the bikes built before '83. Even
> >>builders who built back before '83 aren't really making the same bikes
> >>they were then. At least not design wise. Sure they look similar, but
> >>that's really it for 99% of the KOF frames built today. this is what KOF
> >>is so damn popular on this list. Personally I really don't see any
> >>difference between those KOF bikes and the Litespeed Ghisallo except on
> >>the outside. They are both handbuilt custom bikes for a very specific
> >>kind of rider. The philosophy and thinking behind the bikes are the
> >> same.
> >> They both target the kind of rider they want on the bike and craft a
> >> bike
> >>to appeal to that rider.
> >
> > So specifically - what is diffferent and why does it matter? Not
> > questioning your supposition - just wondering what you mean. I once
> > asked one of the most respected KOF builders what the diff was between the
> > ride quality with standard and OS tubes and the response I got was
> > something to the effect of : "no difference other than a weight savings".
> >
> >
> > Roman Stankus
> > Atlanta, Ga