Re: [CR] dating an Ellis-Briggs bike? (and the Favori name)

(Example: Events:Cirque du Cyclisme)

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 10:24:15 +0000
Subject: Re: [CR] dating an Ellis-Briggs bike? (and the Favori name)
From: "Simon PJ" <simonpj@mac.com>
To: Doug Fattic <fatticbicycles@qtm.net>, "classicrendezvous@bikelist.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
In-Reply-To: <C1CEC8D1.636E%fatticbicycles@qtm.net>


Many thanks for this Doug. Great to get the inside story on the Favori brand.

Wyndham Pulman-Jones Girton, Cambs., UK.

On 13/1/07 22:35, "Doug Fattic" <fatticbicycles@qtm.net> wrote:
> When I was learning to build bicycle frames at Ellis Briggs in Shipley,
> Yorkshire in 1975, Andrew was the primary framebuilder and - as far as I
> know - still is (at least he was in 2000 when I visited with my daughter).
> He started a year earlier (the summer of '74) and was taught by Jack Briggs.
> He is the one most likely to know about the history of your frame.
> Unfortunately, he doesn't build much anymore since the cost of an Ellis
> Briggs frame - although modest by American standards - is greater than the
> alternatives coming out of the far east. As a result, his work is mostly on
> the first floor doing bicycle repair and sales (second floor is where the
> frame shop is). If you were to ring up, I'd first ask for him.
>
> Just because your frame has a Favori label, doesn't mean it was necessarily
> built on the premises at 18 Otley Rd (although it is likely). The British
> system allows for frames of one label to be made anywhere and painted with
> the stores' name. I, too, would be surprised if your frame was as early as
> 1976. The mindset of Andrew and Jack wasn't to push the design envelope to
> make the latest fad, although the guy that sold pro equipment on the first
> floor might have encouraged it. Their marketing philosophy was to make good
> frames not the latest thing and I don't remember anything about aero tubing
> in 1975.
>
> Speaking of marketing, I remember a conversation with the downstairs pro
> guy. I can't remember his name but you Brits will. His son became one of
> best pro riders from England and was killed in a tragic bar incident in his
> prime. What was his name? Anyway, they decided that they needed to have a
> brand that sounded more European (read Italian). This pro sales guy (whose
> name I can't remember) took the name favorite and dropped the last letters
> so it ended in a vowel and sounded Italian. When I was there, 3 out of 4
> frames were decaled with the Favori brand. When ordering, you could choose
> which name you wanted on your frame. The pronunciation (in my American
> accent) would be fa (as in far) voor (rhymes with floor) ee (like your wife
> just saw a mouse).
>
> It is nice to hear you say you would be thoughtful of their time in asking
> for information. Framebuilders don't typically have secretaries nor are
> they trained as one either. They are unlikely to have some perfect
> organization of past data and would look forward to a request for
> information about as enthusiastically as they would an IRS audit. That
> doesn't mean you shouldn't ask, but just do it in a way that realizes it is
> an imposition.
>
> I have put serial numbers on Ellis Briggs frames but have long ago forgot
> what the numbers meant.
>
> Doug Fattic
> Niles, Michigan USA
>
>
> Ian Briggs wrote:
>
>> Having said all that I believe we've had this conversation on CR recently -
>> RE: Builders running businesses actually having the time / inclination to
>> search their records for info etc., - So perhaps wait to see if you get any
>> response from the list, and keep contacting E-B as a last resort!?
>
> I will contact Ellis Briggs if I need to. But, yes, what Bruce Gordon and
> others have said on the matter means that I am inclined to respect their
> time if possible.
>
>> but I'm biased, I just love any Ellis Briggs anyway
>> (mainly because it was the first lightweight that I ever raced on back in
>> 1968 - but that's another story).
>
> What's the story? Were you racing near Shipley?
>
>> Maybe there is an Ellis Briggs afficianado on the list who could decode the
>> frame number or knows how their numbering system works?
>
> The frame number is: 5720 - A/1.82
>
>> What a gorgeous bike...
>
> Yes, I'm delighted with it. I don't have experience of fillet brazed frames,
> but the work all looks extremely clean to me. And I'm also surprised at the
> relatively light weight of the bike, which comes in at just under twenty
> pounds as it is in the photos.
>
> Best,
>
> Wyndham Pulman-Jones
> Girton, Cambs., UK
>
>
>
>
> On 13/1/07 19:40, "LeMansGTMAN@aol.com" <LeMansGTMAN(AT)aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> What a gorgeous bike... but I'm biased, I just love any Ellis Briggs anyway
>> (mainly because it was the first lightweight that I ever raced on back in
>> 1968 - but that's another story).
>>
>> Anyway, have you thought of just contacting Ellis Briggs direct with the
>> frame number?
>>
>> I believe they have pretty comprehensive build records there still and as
>> long as they're not suddenly deluged with dozens of anxious E-B owners trying
>> to find provenence for their frames they'll probably be inclined to assist.
>>
>> They were quite helpful when I phoned them a few years back to try and ID a
>> frame I had bought as an "E-B" and which they told me was no such thing. It
>> turned out to be a Raleigh in the end by the way...
>>
>> Having said all that I believe we've had this conversation on CR recently -
>> RE: Builders running businesses actually having the time / inclination to
>> search their records for info etc., - So perhaps wait to see if you get any
>> response from the list, and keep contacting E-B as a last resort!?
>>
>> Maybe there is an Ellis Briggs afficianado on the list who could decode the
>> frame number or knows how their numbering system works?
>>
>> Ian Briggs
>> LUTON - UK