As a friend of Dave's, Dale I'm glad to see you like his work.
Regarding chainstay, here's another method: measure from the center of the crank to the point where the seatstay and chainstay centerlines intersect, if the axle slot allows it. I think Trek did it this way in their early days.
One of the problems with looking for a "logical" location or just measuring to the actual axle position (yes, a 5th option!) is that the best wheel installation position, in a slotted dropout, can be a result of gearing choice. When fitting a 13-26 to my short-short Masi, I have to tweak the wheel position and the chain length together to optimize shifting. (can do, but not sure it's worth the trouble!!) Of course this situation is not limited to Masi's!
I really don't see any basis for preferring one way over another, but maybe someone else does ... ?
Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of oroboyz@aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 5:19 PM To: damann@mitre.org; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Was: intro... now: frame geometry
Welcome Dan, you sound like you are a super addition to our strange assembly of cycling aficionados!
The frame geometry web site shown on your e-mail signature interested me..
http://home.comcast.net/
Pretty much fun trying to catalog and categorize that information!
My first thoughts were how bikes with almost-the-same geometry (assuming "identical" is impossible) often "seem" to ride differently... The whole process of "ride" is so subjective and not able to be measured. Lordy, many have tried and tried to evaluate "ride" but it is still an elusive art...
The other thought that might be fun to hear others discuss is that of chain stay length, or rather, how one measures that dimension on horizontal drop out bike frames (road, not addressing track dropouts) ...
You suggest measuring to the linear extensions of the seat & chain stays/ Other approachs: - The mathmatical mid point in the drop out slot. - The center of the derailleur hanger (McLean Fonvielle used this method.) - The spot where the rear axle might most logically be positioned (hard to say sometimes!)
Are there other approaches?
Dale Brown Greensboro, North Carolina USA
-----Original Message----- From: damann@mitre.org To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Sun, 20 May 2007 2:59 PM Subject: [CR]New Member Intro
Hey folks,
I've just joined the list so I thought I would post up my official introduction post.
My name is Dave Mann and I live in the Boston area.
I got into bikes when I was in high school in central Ohio. A kindly guy who ran the local bike shop talked me through the task of renovating my suffering bike. When I was finished and got it working well enough, he offered me a job in his shop. That was 30 years ago.
That kind soul's name is Chuck Harris. And while the shop has been closed, I'm glad report that he's still producing and selling his wonderful mirrors.
Chuck was a huge influence in my cycling. The first time I rode from one town to another was one a group ride. And I still remember the day he dropped everything he was working on to help a coast-coast tourist who limped into town with a blown bottom bracket. Those experiences expanded my horizons about riding which eventually led me to the wonderful world of bike touring.
I'm insanely interested in lightweight sport touring bikes. Especially the early Japanese and American frames and great Japanese components.
This is firmly based in the first experiences selling and working on Japanese Fujis and Miyatas in Chuck's shop. It's also based on the set of bikes that I've owned which has included: 1978 Fuji Grand Tourer SE (traded in on a...), 1979 Fuji Royale II (sold to pay for a...), 1982 Trek 600 (which I rode for over a decade including a transcon tour before I crunched it under a car port and replaced it with a...), 1995 Trek 1220 (aluminum race frame which I finally got rid of when I found this on eBay...), 1979 Trek 510 (a bike that I just adore) and a 1983 Trek 311 (my errand bike).
I'm particularly interested in pre 1984 Trek sport touring bikes. Some
older pics of my 510 are here although please note that the components have
been changed significantly (some new, some old) since these pictures were
posted: http://www.vintage-trek.com/
Lastly and perhaps most importantly, I'm very, very, very interested in older frame geometries and to that end I've been standing up a web projected devoted to compiling a list of bike geometries. My primary interest is to document older geometries from the 60s, 70s and 80s so that a) they aren't forgotten and b) that we might better understand the influence of these geometries and their relevance for today.
If you post about an older bike of yours, I warn you ahead of time that I may e-mail you off list asking you to measure up the frame. Many of these bikes have geometries that are entirely undocumented. IMO, we're in danger of collectively forgetting so much.
-Dave Mann, Boston, MA
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THE BIKE GEOMETRY PROJECT
A community effort to document and compare bike geometries
http://home.comcast.net/