Re: [CR]RH on eBay : Seller's reply.

(Example: Framebuilders:Brian Baylis)

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:54:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: <>
Subject: Re: [CR]RH on eBay : Seller's reply.
In-reply-to: <>
To: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <>
References: <>
cc: Classic Rendezvous <>

Through ignorance, I initiated the discussion regarding this particula r bike now for sale on eBay, and have now have learned something about
   the maker. I was interested in Jerry Moos' comment that this particular bike does n't fit "the concept of constructeur," and, I suspect he's r ight, however, given the comments of other knowledgeable collectors perhaps that concept should now be modified to include the racing models . Can the "concept of constructeur" ever be changed? George Hollenberg MD Westport,CT, USA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerome & Elizabeth Moos"

Date: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:41 am Subject: Re: [CR]RH on eBay : Seller's reply. To: alex m ,
> As one who criticized the poor photo, I apologize for having
> missed the link to the additional photos, which Alexander
> correctly points out. These are indeed much more what one would
> need to evaluate a $3600 bike. I suppose eBay buyers, myself
> included, are a bit lazy in expecting all the photos to appear
> on the auction page, and don't look carefully enough for a link
> to additional photos.
> And Alexander's points are well taken about the usual lack of
> custom parts on Herse racing bikes. And while providing at
> least all-correct components might have made the bike more
> attractive, there is no guarantee it would have raised the price
> enough to pay for the correct components.
> It is quite possible this bike will make reserve or more,
> although it's not a price I would pay. Right or wrong, for man y
> of us, the attraction of an Herse, Singer or other constructeur
> farme is in being fitted with special components and/or brazeons
> for specifically selected components. That is, a constructeur
> bike is more than a platform on which to hang generic parts. A
> Rene Herse racing model, no matter how well made, or how
> successful in racing, simply does not fit our concept of
> constructeur. To spend that kind of money on a racing bike, one
> expects a fairly rare model Pogliaghi, DeRosa or Masi, and
> probably with at least a few pantagraphed components at that.
> Overall, I think Alexander makes some good points. And I hope
> him good luck with the auction, even though I won't be bidding.
> Regards,
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, TX
> alex m wrote:
> As the seller of the Rene Herse racer that has taken a
> fair amount of in my opinion unfair criticism, I think
> I have the right to defend the bike I am selling :
> 1) No RH parts : Rene Herse racers, unlike the
> cyclotouring models, were often not fitted with RH
> cranks or stem. So this is perfectly normal. If you
> want all the RH parts, look for a cyclotouring model.
> 2) Incorrect parts : The bike would probably have been
> fitted with Campy/Stronglight. Not terribly difficult
> or expensive to find. I could of course have fitted
> these parts onto the bike myself prior to selling, but
> I would then have been selling a bike as all original
> when in fact the parts would have been only correct,
> not original. I don't like doing this. It's more
> honest to show the buyer what he is actually buying.
> 3) Price : within a few hours of listing the bike I
> had an offer of 3000 USD + from a CR member, so I
> think I am not being unreasonable. I sold item
> 220091453576 for 3000 USD a few months back, the bike
> didn't have perfect paint either, and didn't have all
> the chrome that makes the one on ebay at the moment a
> rather special and spectacular example of RH's work.
> The buyer was delighted with the bike and said it was
> the bargain of his life.
> A Jean Desbois RH racer with no correct parts at all
> sold on eBay for 2900 USD. Missing parts aren't as
> important on an RH racer as on a cyclotouring model.
> 4) Paintwork : this is the only criticism that I will
> accept. Top tube is not perfect, on the other hand an
> expert hand would make this just about unnoticeable,
> and the important parts that can't be touched in
> easily, ie chrome and Rene Herse logos are perfect.
> There again I could have had the touching in done here
> in France but chose not to.
> 5) Poor photos? It says clearly in the description
> click HERE which leads you to a full page of high
> resolution photos. I spend a lot of time downloading
> photos to my internet site so that buyers get a
> precise idea of what I am selling. I always detail
> photo any imperfection, and as my feedback shows,
> buyers generally find the bikes they buy even better
> than they looked in the photos. Detail photos always
> make imperfections look worse than they really are
> because the human eye always takes in a general view,
> not a detail view.
> To change the subject, I would just like to give my
> personal opinion on Rene Herse bikes buily by Jean
> Desbois. Much as I admire these bikes, I believe the
> bikes built before 1976 are in a league of their own.
> Rene Herse was the ultimate perfectionist, and on his
> best bikes every detail is perfection and harmony,
> both absolutely beautiful and absolutely functional.
> They are at their best the best bikes ever built.
> To achieve such perfection, time spent had to be of no
> object. Although Rene didn't do all the work himself,
> be was an engineering and design genius, and a hard
> driver of his very skilled workers. On the Desbois
> machines there were a very few shortcuts that make
> them just a shade less perfect than things were when
> Rene was alive : the most obvious the replacement of
> hand written logos by transfers. I am not in any way
> denigrating Desbois bikes, they are wonderful, among
> the best of their time, but not quite as wonderful to
> my eyes as the "Rene" Rene Herses.
> I am awaiting with great interest the first results of
> the Mike Kone RH resurrection. If they want the end
> result to be of the same standard as the originals,
> which I believe they do, they will have to spend
> unlimited time getting every detail perfect. Time =
> money, so I think these bikes are going to have to be
> VERY expensive to be economically viable. I think that
> retrospectively in comparison 3600 USD for an original
> beautiful model RH blue and chrome racer will seem
> cheap
> Alexander March
> Bordeaux
> France
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George Hollenberg MD