Norris Lockley <norris.lockley@talktalk.net> wrote:
It was interesting reading the account of how Francesco came into the frame building business, and it helped me to put a bit of time sequence into the 80s decade. During much of that decade I imported ranges of Geliano, Rozelli and& nbsp; Canelli frames from the French builder Jean-Marie Duret. Although based in a tiny town about 120kms south of Paris, Duret had, and still has a huge business, based around being the sole importer into France of several leading Japanese brands such as Suntour, and Barum from Czechoslovakia. His export business was large too, based on promoting the Geliano brand principally at all the major European Trade Shows. I worked for Jean-Marie at these Shows on sales and interpreting/translating.
At the 1987 Milan Show "Geliano" had a huge stand at the far end of a large hall alongside neighbours Guerciotti, Mondinico, Faggin and Fanini. Directly across the aisle from our stand was Francesco Moser's own stand...so we met up with FM and his colleagues for espressos quite frequently.
One feature of the Geliano stand was the number of bikes and frames built using bronze-welding techniques..and these drew large crowds of admirers, since they were virtually the only frames on show that didn't use the standard chrome-head-lugged approach. On the last Monday of the Show, traditionally a "trade day" when the public is not allowed in, and exhibitors can roam around and eye up the opposition, a group of four very immaculately dressed Italian gentlemen arrived on the Geliano stand to announce that they represented the craftsman-artisan frame-builders of Italy, or at least those exhibiting at this Show, and it was their duty to award Jean-Marie that "prize" for having the most elegant frames in the exhibition..according to the votes of their fellow members. The gang of four were idio Tommasini, Luigi Daccordi..and the Rossin brothers.
Puzzled by the commotion on the stand, Moser strode across to enquire what was happening. The gang of four took pleasure in explaining the "award" and pointed Moser towards the array of lugless frames. Later that day Moser came over for a longer chat, explaining that lugless building was not a skill practiced in the Italian frame industry...but that he thought that the "look" of the frames was very appealing. asking who he might contact in France to discuss possibilities of some link-up, samples etc
Clearly Jean-Marie was not disposed to offer up his own two builders, but suggested a very well known and supremely skilled builder with whom J-M had a few years earlier had an interesting but not particularly rewarding, financially speaking, liaison - the builder in question having no real understanding of what was meant by a "delivery dead-line". The builder was Andre Sabliere, of Lyon...and it was Andre who built the first crop of prototype lugless frames that appeared under the Francesco Moser banner.
In typing this contri, I have just been wondering who came first.? Had Jean -Marie approached Andre to have his first lugless frames produced..or did Andre take the initiative? Not a man for dead-lines our Andre. I had dinner with him at a Swiss restaurant in Paris, in September 1983, and ordered an aluminum lugged (Sabliere welded up his own lugs/sleeves) carbon-tubed, (TVT made the tubes) racing frame to equip the one of the UK women's cycling team selected for the 1984 Olympic Games. Even though I have met up with Andre on several occasions since he has never told me when I might expect delivery. As he has since left the industry to concentrate on computers, it looks as though I might never get it.
Norris Lockley...Settle UK
Norris,
Somewhere I remember hearing or reading that Moser did not use brass
(sif-bronze, whatever) as a brazing material but rather some kind of silver
in making the joints on his lugless frames. Do you know anything about
this? For those not much interested in framebuilding techniques, brass
melts at around 1600 degrees Fahrenheit and sliver 1200. The advantage of
brass is that it is cost effective and fills gaps while silver is expensive
and does not - which is why silver isn't used when bronze welding ("fillet
brazing" on this side of the pond). One possible reason for using some kind
of silver alloy brazing material to make lugless frames is because it causes
less distortion which can be emphasized when marketing. I remember going to
a welding show in the states where some Italian welding suppliers were and
asked them what silver materials might be used in making these Italian
frames. They didn't know.
>From time to time, the question of using silver to fillet braze comes up on
the framebuilding lists. If using a silver brazing material with less
silver content (American typically use either 56% or 45% when doing a lugged
frame) like 35 or 25%, it is possible to get it to puddle. However, Hank
Folson - who makes Henry James lugs - says silver has a longevity problem if
used in this way because it is prone to internal cracking as it shrinks as
it cools down (or some such explanation - I kind of forget the exact
problem). But, if the Italian silver brazed lugless frames still held up
over use, then it wouldn't be a bad idea (except in cost). I just wondered
if you know any more about this?
By the way, one of the original differences between British and American builders was that the Brits used brass and the Yanks silver until 753 tubing came on the scene which recommended being silver brazed. Now days with other, thinner heat treated tubing - which can't be as easily cold set into alignment like older tubing - silver is more common everywhere.
Thanks,
Doug