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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit (Chuck Schmidt) 2. FS: Bar/stem/leather 3. Copper plating 531 Steel frames and lugs (philip bailey) 4. RE: Copper plating 531 Steel frames and lugs (Ken Freeman) 5. Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit (David Patrick) 6. Copper-plating 531 steel frames (Norris Lockley) 7. Re: Copper-plating 531 steel frames (John Betmanis) 8. Re: Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit (Fred Rafael Rednor) 9. Re: Copper-plating 531 steel frames 10. Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit (Jay Sexton) 11. Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit (Fred Rafael Rednor) 12. Re: Copper plating 531 Steel frames and lugs (philip bailey) 13. Re: Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit (Brian Van Baush) 14. Japanese web site (Ed Braley)
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Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:13:25 -0800 From: Chuck Schmidt To: CR RENDEZVOUS Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit Message-ID: <7F03A002-51EA-45A3-B34D-8CA743710AA0@earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: <998215.36830.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <998215.36830.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 1
I believe it.
Chuck Schmidt -- South Pasadena, California (USA) retro.com> (reprints, t-shirts & timelines)
On Dec 25, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Fred Rafael Rednor wrote:
> De Rosa and most of the well known Italian builders were
> tremendous self-promoters. For that matter, so was Merckx, one
> he entered the frame building business. So I doubt that one
> can take all their assertions too seriously. DeRosa might have
> built several frames for Merckx to use in the Giro - but I
> refuse to believe he built them overnight for use the next day.
>
> Consider this: he would have to construct the frame, paint it,
> face the appropriate surfaces, mount the parts, adjust
> everything and then put in a little testing to ensure there
> were no unforseen problems. Then there's the matter of the
> transportation... If you were trying to win one of the world's
> most important bike races (and the most important one in
> Italy), would you risk using a a bike put together in that sort
> of situation?
> Regards,
> Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia (USA)
>
> --- Jonathanadamgree@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> I know nothing of how Derosa might have painted, but many of
>> todays best
>> painters heat the frame in one manner or another to force
>> dry. Primer and one
>> color could happen pretty quick if it were only for a race
>> bike. If the story
>> is true I'm guessing UGO didn't care if the frame had a
>> Baylis like paint job
>> or not.
>>
>> Jonathan Greene
>> Oviedo FL
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 12/25/2006 11:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard
>> Time,
>> jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net writes:
>>
>> Can DeRosa's account really be true? Even assuming one
>> could build a bike
>> to a rider's specification in one night, one then has to
>> paint it in the team
>> colors. That couldn't leave more than a couple of hours for
>> the paint to
>> dry. I've never painted bikes, but I'd think it would take
>> at least a day for
>> a paint job to dry properly.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jerry Moos
>> Big Spring, TX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> _______________________________________________
Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, CA USA http://www.velo-retro.com (reprints, t-shirts & timelines)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:32:15 EST From: LouDeeter@aol.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]FS: Bar/stem/leather Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 2
For sale is a bar/stem combination. The bar is Ambrosio with wreath and lettering, 42.5 c-c. Center portions are very good condition. The leather wrap is black and scuffed and worn on the outer drops and ends. Stem is 100 and has some scratches. Pic available. The lever mounts are female for bolts, not pegs for allen nuts. $30 shipped. This isn't a 24 hour thing. I won't try that again. First person to say they'll take it gets it. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:54:24 -0500 From: "philip bailey" To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Copper plating 531 Steel frames and lugs Message-ID: <47b23c0b0612251254l40e3b2f8l33ce7df48ec39fb2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 3
Does anyone know any (USA) vendors and/or any information about copper plating, like how destructive the plating process is to steel frames? It looks like an optimum finish in several ways, but have only seen one bike to date, so don't know why there aren't more.
Thinking about leaving front and rear forks standard Raleigh chrome plated to reduce additional metallurgical processes done to those frame components, and just buff frame down and clear coat.
Thanks, Phil Bailey Sarasota, FL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:03:59 -0500 From: "Ken Freeman" To: "'philip bailey'" ,
Subject: RE: [CR]Copper plating 531 Steel frames and lugs Message-ID: <000101c72868$35691f20$6401a8c0@maincomputer> In-Reply-To: <47b23c0b0612251254l40e3b2f8l33ce7df48ec39fb2@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: list Message: 4
Copper will darken and get a greenish tinge eventually. Most inorganic compounds of copper are green. The plating process may require the frame to be plated first with nickel, then with copper. But I'm not an expert in plating.
Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of philip bailey Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 3:54 PM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Copper plating 531 Steel frames and lugs
Does anyone know any (USA) vendors and/or any information about copper plating, like how destructive the plating process is to steel frames? It looks like an optimum finish in several ways, but have only seen one bike to date, so don't know why there aren't more.
Thinking about leaving front and rear forks standard Raleigh chrome plated to reduce additional metallurgical processes done to those frame components, and just buff frame down and clear coat.
Thanks, Phil Bailey Sarasota, FL
_______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 13:18:35 -0800 (PST) From: David Patrick
To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: [CR]Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit Message-ID: <20061225211836.53974.qmail@web82307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <7F03A002-51EA-45A3-B34D-8CA743710AA0@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 5
I also believe this. Back when steel and aluminum were the primary components used in racing cars, it was nothing for an prominent team to work all night to build up a new chassis or make major structural modifications to a chassis &/or body. All this occurred during the heat of qualifications &/or right before the start of a major race. Given this, I have no problem believing that Ugo and one or more assistants couldn't build a frame or two over night for Eddy. Ugo could be building the main triangle while an assistant built up the rear stays w/rear dropouts. Or the rear stays/rear dropouts could have been pre-fabricated days/weeks/months before. A few coats of enamel with heat lamps would dry good enough in a 1-2 hours to be used immediately by Eddy.
Dave Patrick Chelsea, Michigan USA
Chuck Schmidt wrote: I believe it.
Chuck Schmidt -- South Pasadena, California (USA) retro.com> (reprints, t-shirts & timelines)
On Dec 25, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Fred Rafael Rednor wrote:
> De Rosa and most of the well known Italian builders were
> tremendous self-promoters. For that matter, so was Merckx, one
> he entered the frame building business. So I doubt that one
> can take all their assertions too seriously. DeRosa might have
> built several frames for Merckx to use in the Giro - but I
> refuse to believe he built them overnight for use the next day.
>
> Consider this: he would have to construct the frame, paint it,
> face the appropriate surfaces, mount the parts, adjust
> everything and then put in a little testing to ensure there
> were no unforseen problems. Then there's the matter of the
> transportation... If you were trying to win one of the world's
> most important bike races (and the most important one in
> Italy), would you risk using a a bike put together in that sort
> of situation?
> Regards,
> Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia (USA)
>
> --- Jonathanadamgree@aol.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Jerry,
>>
>> I know nothing of how Derosa might have painted, but many of
>> todays best
>> painters heat the frame in one manner or another to force
>> dry. Primer and one
>> color could happen pretty quick if it were only for a race
>> bike. If the story
>> is true I'm guessing UGO didn't care if the frame had a
>> Baylis like paint job
>> or not.
>>
>> Jonathan Greene
>> Oviedo FL
>>
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 12/25/2006 11:53:50 A.M. Eastern Standard
>> Time,
>> jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net writes:
>>
>> Can DeRosa's account really be true? Even assuming one
>> could build a bike
>> to a rider's specification in one night, one then has to
>> paint it in the team
>> colors. That couldn't leave more than a couple of hours for
>> the paint to
>> dry. I've never painted bikes, but I'd think it would take
>> at least a day for
>> a paint job to dry properly.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jerry Moos
>> Big Spring, TX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
Chuck Schmidt South Pasadena, CA USA http://www.velo-retro.com (reprints, t-shirts & timelines)
_______________________________________________
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 21:32:50 -0000 From: "Norris Lockley" To: Subject: [CR]Copper-plating 531 steel frames Message-ID: <000b01c7286c$3af43390$8a06f159@049306920171> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 6
In the early 80s I built a number of Columbus SL frames that were either brass, nickel or copper-plated.
The nickel and copper plating are in any case the basis of any top-notch chrome-plating process..or should I say they were, some years ago..
As has already been identified, the trouble with copper is that it develops a greenish coating of verdigris..an acetate of copper, if not protected from the atmosphere. Once plated, the copper should be given at least one coating of hard clear lacquer to seal the surface to prevent the verdigris forming.
The other problem is, of course getting a lacquer or varnish that will key on to the shiney copper plate. In 1982, my shop manager Alan Gornall went to France to join the famous ACBB-Peugeot racing squad, along with Sean Yates, Graham Jones, Alan Peiper. Because his "Team Peugeot" bike wasn't ready he set off with a new "Bespoke" resplendent in its copper-plate finish, complete with what we thought was an adequate lacquer coat.
The team's training HQ was situated on the Riviera, so Alan had to drive south from Calais to Paris..and onwards down to the Riviera, with the bike mounted on a boot-top rack. En route the weather deteriorated, and it began to sleet and snow. According to Alan, when he arrived at Nice, his immaculate bright copper-plated frame was covered in numerous small patches and dots of verdigris, where the lacquer had not been applied well enough. A couple of days later an aerosol spray had covered the damage..and the frame became an immaculate white, and transferred up in Peugeot livery.
For whatever reason, and I can't think of one, I had far more luck with nickel-plated finishes, protected with lacquer coats. The lacquer seemed to stick more firmly to that metal than to either copper or brass.
Norris Lockley
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 17:02:06 -0500 From: John Betmanis To: Subject: Re: [CR]Copper-plating 531 steel frames Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20061225170206.00798dc0@mailhost.oxford.net> In-Reply-To: <000b01c7286c$3af43390$8a06f159@049306920171> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: list Message: 7
At 09:32 PM 12/25/06 -0000, Norris Lockley wrote:
>For whatever reason, and I can't think of one, I had far more luck with
>nickel-plated finishes, protected with lacquer coats. The lacquer seemed
>to stick more firmly to that metal than to either copper or brass.
A plating expert could probably elaborate on this, but one reason for plating different layers of metals is to prevent what is underneath from migrating through to the surface. It may be that the iron comes through the copper causing discoloration.
John Betmanis Woodstock, Ontario Canada ------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:10:31 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Rafael Rednor To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR]Re: Eddy at Speed....Bike Fit Message-ID: <20061225221031.92393.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20061225211836.53974.qmail@web82307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Precedence: list Message: 8
I rearely get crotchety about these discussions, but I'm on the verge here. Perhaps it's because I'm working today and all I can find for background music is Hindustani disco. Not even real Bangra... :-D
Listen - when this was done in auto racing, it was entirely due to the exegencies of the moment. I.e. there was crash damage to be repaired, or a new design proved to be unsuitable at a particular circuit. If you need some explanation about this sort of thing, you might enjoy reading "The Unfair Advantage" by the late Mark Donohue:
Parenthetically speaking, the book has a lot to say about general engineering development principals (that pertain as much to areas such as bicycling and software) and it might do everyone on this list well to read it. I'll even promise to read it again (twice if necessary) myself! Again, insert smile here :-D
Now, I certainly believe that De Rosa had several frames pre-built for these big races, and might have "built one up" - that is, assembled a bike overnight - using an existing frame. Bear in mind, we're talking about a matter of millimeters here. These are differences that can be taken up my sliding the saddle and changing the stem. So I'll restate what I think is clear: no one of Merchx's caliber is going to risk success in as important a race as the Giro on a frame that was literally built and assembled overnight.
But we can all agree to disagree on this one. Yet again, insert smile here :-D Best regards to all, Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia (USA)
--- David Patrick
wrote:
> I also believe this. Back when steel and aluminum were the
> primary components used in racing cars, it was nothing for an
> prominent team to work all night to build up a new chassis or
> make major structural modifications to a chassis &/or body.
> All this occurred during the heat of qualifications &/or
> right before the start of a major race. Given this, I have
> no problem believing that Ugo and one or more assistants
> couldn't build a frame or two over night for Eddy. Ugo could
> be building the main triangle while an assistant built up the
> rear stays w/rear dropouts. Or the rear stays/rear dropouts
> could have been pre-fabricated days/weeks/months before. A
> few coats of enamel with heat lamps would dry good enough in
> a 1-2 hours to be used immediately by Eddy.
>
>
> Dave Patrick
> Chelsea, Michigan USA
>
> Chuck Schmidt wrote:
> I believe it.
>
> Chuck Schmidt -- South Pasadena, California (USA) retro.com>
> (reprints, t-shirts & timelines)
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2006, at 11:56 AM, Fred Rafael Rednor wrote:
>
> > De Rosa and most of the well known Italian builders were
> > tremendous self-promoters. For that matter, so was Merckx,
> one
> > he entered the frame building business. So I doubt that one
> > can take all their assertions too seriously. DeRosa might
> have
> > built several frames for Merckx to use in the Giro - but I
> > refuse to believe he built them overnight for use the next
> day.
> >
> > Consider this: he would have to construct the frame, paint
> it,
> > face the appropriate surfaces, mount the parts, adjust
> > everything and then put in a little testing to ensure there
> > were no unforseen problems. Then there's the matter of the
> > transportation... If you were trying to win one of the
> world's
> > most important bike races (and the most important one in
> > Italy), would you risk using a a bike put together in that
> sort
> > of situation?
> > Regards,
> > Fred Rednor - Arlington, Virginia (USA)
=== message truncated ===
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