At Friday's Thames Velo dinner I met a recently retired bike shop owner/framebuilder. I asked how he learnt frame building and he said that he spent alot of time at the workshop behind George Strattons in Wandsworth. He said that the workshop was previously the Saxon premises and was rented by Bill Gray who had been the Top tandem frame builder for Saxons. My informant was in awe of Bill Gray's ability. Apparently around this time the early BMC minis were already rusting away and Bill could earn more from the garage next door welding a new floor pan in a Mini (half a days work) than building a top class frame so his frame output dipped dramatically. My informant never really answered my question but it seems that his background as an artisan in engineering combined with watching Bill Gray was his "apprenticeship". Perhaps surprisingly he has a good reputation. Ray Green, Harrow, Middlesex