Re: [CR]Badge thuggery: please!

Example: Framebuilders:Dario Pegoretti

Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:20:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Naiman <>
Subject: Re: [CR]Badge thuggery: please!
To: Amir Avitzur <>, Classicrendezvous <>
In-Reply-To: <>


I recognize we're mainly talking about badges here, with a few mention of parts as well.

I've gone back and read most of the prior emails. I would assume the vast majority of people on this list know and appreciate Vintage cycles, otherwise they wouldn't be on the list. It is in poor taste when someone splits apart an unrestored cycle just for profit, but once we sell a cycle, the new owner has the right to do with the cycle as they want, although I do not agree with stripping complete unrestored bikes for profit either.

I'm still pissed off to this day at the buyer on Ebay who purchased my completely original and unrestored 1917 Ivor Johnson, only to see it stripped totally for profit less than a month later

I personally separate cycles into two categories, although it's difficult to be clear as black and white. If I buy a Vintage Lightweight, that was unrestored from birth, or is of Antique vintage, but rebuilt with updated parts over the years to keep it's rideability, I don't believe in stripping parts to restore, although others have the right to restore to period correctness. To me, adding parts as needed is part of the bikes history.

I've written to the list before as a good example of this is my 1938 Hetchin's Anglo that came with a 1950/51 parts group. The original owner had rebuilt this frame in the early 50s to make this bike more rideable, I assume, but in changing parts added more history. I wouldn't dare touch this bike even though it is not period correct.

However if a cycle has been completely restored to period correctness from the ground up, with parts gathered from all over the known world, I have no problem with stripping parts as needed, as there is no history to a recreation, although it does seem wrong in some sense to destroy what somebody else has faithfully restored.

On this note a bought a gorgious Vintage frame years ago that had been totally restored with an all new vintage parts group, all rechromed etc, but not original to the frame. My original intention was to keep this gorgious cycle as is, but a few years later, a frame of much historical importance to Hetchins came up, but without a parts group. I needed a gruppo, but at the time was cash poor, so without hesitation swapped the gruppo from the first cycle to the Hetchins.

On the same note, I may assume that the vast majority of members on this list buy parts, badges etc, to rebuild their newly acquired classic. So I think it a bit strange when list members are on a "Soap Box" preaching to the choir about not wanting to buy a head badge on Ebay, or bashing the seller of a badge. We do not know where the parts or badge came from, but most likely from a classic that was stripped. Unless we are an extreme purist who only buys fully unrestored complete Vintage bicycles, we are all part of the feeding chain.

I do agree with a fellow list member who wrote earlier today. Casting aspersions on unknown sellers is in poor taste, whether calling them nerds from France or Hippies on Fixed Gears. Such brow beating and name calling doesn't belong on this list.

Just my long winded point of view. I'll now get down off of my soap box.

Regards, Peter Naiman Glendale, WI

Amir Avitzur <> wrote:

I totally disagree with the hororable gentleman from France. Where I live, Badge Thuggery is not only tolerated, but encouraged.

Heck whenever I see a Jeep parked on the sidewalk, I'm always tempted to take something as I'm forced off the sidewalk and onto the street to pass it.

Fortunately, I'm able to control myself knowing that I'd just be spoiling the fun for some youngster.

Amir Avitzur
R"G, Israel