I see your point Ray, but I'm with Tom. Let's say I have no issue with how the 50th Ann goup looks; let's say it's perfectly functional; let's say it's a workhorse that could win the Worlds in it's day. But I still wouldn't ride 50th Ann stuff if I had any because it wouldn't make sense when it's so collectible and valuable. To ride it now would seem a waste for me. I know there are those on list who will ride their bikes with 50th Ann stuff but I imagine they are special bikes in a huge fleet of special bikes so an occasional ride isn't the same as riding it like a workhorse. I only have 5 built up road bikes and all of them see regular use and I have to accept that I'm wearing the stuff out (even though it'll outlast me). I couldn't do that with 50th Ann even if I could afford to wear it out. I realize that even N.Record is collectible in its own way, but I don't think of my stacks of beige boxes as very comparable to having a 50th Ann display case stashed.
Mitch Harris Little Rock Canyon, UT
On Dec 13, 2007 5:17 PM, Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tom wrote:
>
> "To me any item that appeals to collectors when new, like a 50th anni group, is basically something that was manufatured to be collected. It is thus something doomed to have the enduring appeal of an item from the Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away by "collectors" and no real history of use, in this case of use in racing."
>
> I respect your knowledge and value your opinion Tom, but when you "dis" the 50th Anniversary gruppo, you go too far :).
>
> The 50th gruppo is as functional as a standard Super Record reduced gruppo. Perhaps you don't like the pantographing and the gold inserts, from an aesthetic point of view, but they do not reduce the functionality of the parts nor do they affect performance. Some of the parts may weigh a few grams more, but the difference is negligible. If I am not mistaken, Beppe Saronni won the 1982 World Championship on a 50th equipped Colnago Mexico.
>
> The 50th Anniv is one of those groups that is meant to be both rideable and collectible. I would guess that as many 50th groups are mounted and ridden as are still in the box. I've seen many that have been ridden into the ground, in fact.
>
> To me, the difference between a standard Super Record gruppo and a 50th gruppo is like the difference between a frame with lots of chrome and a fancy paint job, and the same frame without the chrome and the fancy paint job. They are functionally the same, the only difference is which appeals to your taste.
>
> But to condemn the 50th gruppo to the Franklin Mint-dustbin of collectibles is just wrong. You cut me deep on that one Tom.
>
> Ray Dobbins
> Miami FL USA
>
>
> Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> wrote:
> George Hollenberg wrote:
> All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal finishing trades-not to mention collectors.
>
>
> George,
> Not from this collector. I collect racing bikes. To me an ICS-equipped bike is as racy as a Ferrari with gold brightwork and 20" spinners.
>
> George Hollenberg wrote:
> they sacrificed function to form and finish.
>
> George,
> Exactly. A total deal breaker when you're looking at bikes as racing machines.
>
> George Hollenberg wrote:
>
> In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream.
>
> George,
> I disagree. Basic, top-end Campy, Mavic, Shimano, etc. racing equipment did not sacrifice"everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable," by any stretch of the imagination. They provided nice functional finish while ICS was in the lilly guilding biz. To me any item that appeals to collectors when new, like a 50th anni group, is basically something that was manufatured to be collected. It is thus something doomed to have the enduring appeal of an item from the Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away by "collectors" and no real history of use, in this case of use in racing.
>
> ICS made interesting stuff, don't get me wrong, but I think it is mostly an oddity, with little historical importance. I raced during the ICS era, and never saw it used in a race... ever.
>
> Respectfully,
> Tom Dalton
> Bethlehem PA USA
>
> Another member has raised several interesting questions about ICS.
> Many of the answers to those questions can be found on CR's site and
> little would be served by reiterating this information.
> Other questions, such as precisely who the men at ICS were, I don't
> know, but I'll make inquiry in Switzerland to find out. In fact, ICS was
> imported into the USA and the former importer is still around. Perhaps
> he, as well as other members, can provide answers.
> As for the "mission" of ICS is seems obvious to me that they endeavored
> to produce very highly tuned and exquisitely finished parts and
> frames for the "carriage trade" sector of the bicycle business. With this
> market in mind, and with certain important exceptions, they sacrificed
> function to form and finish. However, if one values fine finish in bike
> parts and frames, ICS is without par.
> All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit
> the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal
> finishing trades-not to mention collectors. They are sought and collected for
> their beauty, quality and rarity. Their high cost at the time of
> production severely limited their numbers and sales. Their frames, whether
> the "Magni" or the "Design" variants were beautifully constructed and
> finished almost always in the "chromovelato" style.
> As is the case in many vintage bike marques, the level of quality of
> the late ICS parts and frames is diminished. Furthermore, it was always
> possible to order an ICS frame alone, or with only a few ICS parts,
> using stock parts to complete the bike. Super Record ICS parts were mixed
> with ICS C Parts, Super Record, and even Shimano parts, etc. In the
> same vein, later owners of ICS bikes frequently stripped some ICS parts
> and retrofitted others. All these factors, common in all vintage bikes
> seen in their later years, must be taken into consideration when viewing
> an ICS bike currently for sale.
> In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make their bikes
> cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make
> their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream.
> George
> George Hollenberg MD
> Westport, CT, USA
>
>
> George Hollenberg MD
> CT, USA
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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