Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com> wrote: ... when you "dis" the 50th Anniversary gruppo, you go too far :).
TD: Allow me to backpedal just a bit....
RD: The 50th gruppo is as functional as a standard Super Record reduced gruppo. Perhaps you don't like the pantographing and the gold inserts, from an aesthetic point of view, but they do not reduce the functionality of the parts nor do they affect performance. Some of the parts may weigh a few grams more, but the difference is negligible.
TD: Agreed. It's just an SR group, less the Ti BB. All equally solid stuff. Plus, there's no pretense of mechanical superiority, which I can't say of ICS. You're right that I don't really like the embellishment, but I do recognize that this is just a matter of personal tastes. I wouldn't mind having a group to play with, but I also don't really have much interest in setting up a complete bike.
RD: If I am not mistaken, Beppe Saronni won the 1982 World Championship on a 50th equipped Colnago Mexico.
TD: I have a poster of Saronni in his jersey holding a big bunch of flowers and he is astride a Mexico with all SR, some of it Colnago pantographed, as I recall. It appears to be the bike he raced on... it is clearly his bike, and a used bike not just for PR photos. I don't recall ever seing him on a 50th group, and the all silver rear der, among other things, gives it away from a long distance. That's also the year before the actual Anniversary, though that doesn't mean the group was not available.
I do have a pic of Moser in the 1984 Giro with 50th anni on his TT bike. This is literally the only pic I can recall seeing fo a Euro pro on 50th, though I'm sure there were a few guys who used it. It would have been quite exceptional, however.
RD: The 50th Anniv is one of those groups that is meant to be both rideable and collectible. I would guess that as many 50th groups are mounted and ridden as are still in the box. I've seen many that have been ridden into the ground, in fact.
TD: Yes, I remember a guy on my team (a kid with a VERY supportive dad) who had a Supercorsa with 50th. Plenty of the groups got used, though I'd say most of this was not for racing. More often it was a nice weekend bike of an older guy with a little extra money, looking for something special... of course that may be true of all SR sold in the USA.
The key to what you say, however, is "I would guess that as many 50th groups are mounted and ridden as are still in the box." Sure, and that means that what, 5,000 of them may still be in the box? What if half of SR stuff had never been used? There would be a huge glut of the stuff. If even 5,000 SR groups are still out there MIB, I'd be very, very surprised, and if so they are probably being kept long-term. Many Anni groups were bought on speculation, little SR was. My point here is that the collectible nature of the Anni group has lead to a disproportionate level of preservation, and possibly to more preservation than all the other SR stuff combined (talking only about complete, NIB, date-matched groups here). Certainly there are more MIB Anni groups than any other single year of SR.
RD: To me, the difference between a standard Super Record gruppo and a 50th gruppo is like the difference between a frame with lots of chrome and a fancy paint job, and the same frame without the chrome and the fancy paint job. They are functionally the same, the only difference is which appeals to your taste.
TD: I agree, and I prefer the less embellished stuff. A little chrome on the ends is nice, but I'm also happy with no chrome. That's more pure-race, in my view. Of course, I like chromey bikes too, especially good chrome on simple lugs. When it gets elaborate, like the Colnao Arabesque, the same "not really for racing" alarm goes off. But, I'm not a hater! I like fancy bikes. I LOVE your webiste and all the wonderful panto bikes (that Ciocc!), and I love your photography. But, for my own collecting, I go for what is actually much more prosiac stuff and focus on recreating or preserving bikes as they were raced. I get into the details of all the parts.
RD: But to condemn the 50th gruppo to the Franklin Mint-dustbin of collectibles is just wrong. You cut me deep on that one Tom.
TD: Sorry, I went too far. It's the real deal because Campy made it. It's neat and novel, in an over-the-top way. It's just that it was clearly Campy's intent to encourage people to by the stuff for collecting. The case, the CoA, the club card... to me this means that there will "always" be a lot of the stuff around. To say Franklin Mint suggests something 3rd party. So, while Franklin mint might have made Robert E. Lee commorative swords, the better analogy here would be more of a dress sword vs. battle sword thing. A dress sword would be made in smaller numbers, but would be disproportionately preserved, not made into a plowshear. Relative to the original premium price, it would not likely appreciate as much, unless there's special provenance. Setting aside all matters ownership and use, I think a basic 1983 SR group NIB, will have appreciated more than an Anni group. Really.... Especially if you bought it once obsolete but before it was collectible, say around 1988 (had I only...). At that time I suspect anni groups were still being sat on and not available cheap.
I would guess that even if you set aside the relative premium paid for the Anni group in its day, and just looked at what the groups would fetch on Ebay, many versions or SR might do as well as the anni. Talking date-matched NIB goups in desirable and era-appropraite dimensions, of course. Imagine what a 1973 SR group would bring on Ebay? If I add up what I see as typical Ebay prices of a stuff from later, say 1983, I come up with a number above $1700. What would remain to be seen, I suppose, is if people were willing to pay close to that for a matched group, or if they'd want a bulk price. This is one way that anni difffers. Everyone knows that Anni needs to be complete so the groups stay together (I only see used anni groups split up). With normal SR, most people don't care if the parts come from several different years, so there is no up side to keeping groups together. At best the premium taht some people will pay for date matching will offset the bulk discount they'll expect. You get more parting out normal groups, I suppose, which I'm not sure is true of Anni. For sure it's a different animal. It's my understanding that NIB Anni groups are selling for less than 2 grand. If that's no longer true, I'll need to revise my thinking, eh?
Personally, I'd be happier to own a date-matched NIB SR goup in "my" sizes from any year, particulally anthing 1st gen, the first CPSC year, the first year of the new rear der and post, or the last year of production.
Finally... One thing I like about the anni group is that you can see in it certain things that are on the horizon for Campy. The hatching on the brake levers and the centerbolt nuts are future Cobalto; the caliper arms are future SR/Cobalto; the fully polished post 1985 and later SR; the no-flute crank is 1986 and later SR....
Tom Dalton Bethlehem, PA USA
n@yahoo.com> wrote: George Hollenberg wrote: All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal finishing trades-not to mention collectors.
George, Not from this collector. I collect racing bikes. To me an ICS-equipped bike is as racy as a Ferrari with gold brightwork and 20" spinners.
George Hollenberg wrote: they sacrificed function to form and finish.
George, Exactly. A total deal breaker when you're looking at bikes as racing machines.
George Hollenberg wrote:
In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream.
George, I disagree. Basic, top-end Campy, Mavic, Shimano, etc. racing equipment did not sacrifice"everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable," by any stretch of the imagination. They provided nice functional finish while ICS was in the lilly guilding biz. To me any item that appeals to collectors when new, like a 50th anni group, is basically something that was manufatured to be collected. It is thus something doomed to have the enduring appeal of an item from the Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away by "collectors" and no real history of use, in this case of use in racing.
ICS made interesting stuff, don't get me wrong, but I think it is mostly an oddity, with little historical importance. I raced during the ICS era, and never saw it used in a race... ever.
Respectfully, Tom Dalton Bethlehem PA USA
Another member has raised several interesting questions about ICS. Many of the answers to those questions can be found on CR's site and little would be served by reiterating this information. Other questions, such as precisely who the men at ICS were, I don't know, but I'll make inquiry in Switzerland to find out. In fact, ICS was imported into the USA and the former importer is still around. Perhaps he, as well as other members, can provide answers. As for the "mission" of ICS is seems obvious to me that they endeavored to produce very highly tuned and exquisitely finished parts and frames for the "carriage trade" sector of the bicycle business. With this market in mind, and with certain important exceptions, they sacrificed function to form and finish. However, if one values fine finish in bike parts and frames, ICS is without par. All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal finishing trades-not to mention collectors. They are sought and collected for their beauty, quality and rarity. Their high cost at the time of production severely limited their numbers and sales. Their frames, whether the "Magni" or the "Design" variants were beautifully constructed and finished almost always in the "chromovelato" style. As is the case in many vintage bike marques, the level of quality of the late ICS parts and frames is diminished. Furthermore, it was always possible to order an ICS frame alone, or with only a few ICS parts, using stock parts to complete the bike. Super Record ICS parts were mixed with ICS C Parts, Super Record, and even Shimano parts, etc. In the same vein, later owners of ICS bikes frequently stripped some ICS parts and retrofitted others. All these factors, common in all vintage bikes seen in their later years, must be taken into consideration when viewing an ICS bike currently for sale. In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream. George George Hollenberg MD Westport, CT, USA
George Hollenberg MD CT, USA
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