Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:56:38 -0800 (PST) From: Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [CR]ICS - Now 50th To: Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com>
Tom, just a quick note before I go. I'm the one who started tracking NIB 50th prices on eBay. But I just started recently so I don't have too much data, and my table needs to be updated.
From memory, I can tell you that there seems to be a downswing in the prices. Recently I've seen gruppos sell for significantly less than $2,700, and a few received no bids. This is a change from about a little over a year ago when $3K seemed to be the going rate, and several groups sold for significantly more.
Ray Dobbins Miami FL USA
Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> wrote: Poking around Ebay just now, the only selling price I found for an NIB anni group was a staggering $2750! It was however a BIN purchase, so only one person had to be willing to pony up, but still... I guess I need to shut up about the value being no greater than normal SR. The rest of the crap about too many of the groups being preserved still stands... except that it appears possibly not to be too many for the market to support. I guess that's where people's taste, or rarther appetite, for the stuff comes in, because I still know that NIB SR groups are far less common on Ebay. Rarity, of course, is nothing without demand, but we've all heard that already. I guess I just fail to get the demand, particularly given the lack of rarity.
Who was it that has been tracking these Anni group prices? It was someone on CR... I'd love to know what they've been selling for and if $2750 is even close to typical,
Tom Dalton Bethlehem PA USA
Raymond Dobbins <raydobbins2003@yahoo.com> wrote: Tom wrote:
"To me any item that appeals to collectors when new, like a 50th anni group, is basically something that was manufatured to be collected. It is thus something doomed to have the enduring appeal of an item from the Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away by "collectors" and no real history of use, in this case of use in racing."
I respect your knowledge and value your opinion Tom, but when you "dis" the 50th Anniversary gruppo, you go too far :).
The 50th gruppo is as functional as a standard Super Record reduced gruppo. Perhaps you don't like the pantographing and the gold inserts, from an aesthetic point of view, but they do not reduce the functionality of the parts nor do they affect performance. Some of the parts may weigh a few grams more, but the difference is negligible. If I am not mistaken, Beppe Saronni won the 1982 World Championship on a 50th equipped Colnago Mexico.
The 50th Anniv is one of those groups that is meant to be both rideable and collectible. I would guess that as many 50th groups are mounted and ridden as are still in the box. I've seen many that have been ridden into the ground, in fact.
To me, the difference between a standard Super Record gruppo and a 50th gruppo is like the difference between a frame with lots of chrome and a fancy paint job, and the same frame without the chrome and the fancy paint job. They are functionally the same, the only difference is which appeals to your taste.
But to condemn the 50th gruppo to the Franklin Mint-dustbin of collectibles is just wrong. You cut me deep on that one Tom.
Ray Dobbins Miami FL USA
Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com> wrote: George Hollenberg wrote: All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal finishing trades-not to mention collectors.
George, Not from this collector. I collect racing bikes. To me an ICS-equipped bike is as racy as a Ferrari with gold brightwork and 20" spinners.
George Hollenberg wrote: they sacrificed function to form and finish.
George, Exactly. A total deal breaker when you're looking at bikes as racing machines.
George Hollenberg wrote:
In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream.
George, I disagree. Basic, top-end Campy, Mavic, Shimano, etc. racing equipment did not sacrifice"everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable," by any stretch of the imagination. They provided nice functional finish while ICS was in the lilly guilding biz. To me any item that appeals to collectors when new, like a 50th anni group, is basically something that was manufatured to be collected. It is thus something doomed to have the enduring appeal of an item from the Franklin mint. Tons squirreled away by "collectors" and no real history of use, in this case of use in racing.
ICS made interesting stuff, don't get me wrong, but I think it is mostly an oddity, with little historical importance. I raced during the ICS era, and never saw it used in a race... ever.
Respectfully, Tom Dalton Bethlehem PA USA
Another member has raised several interesting questions about ICS. Many of the answers to those questions can be found on CR's site and little would be served by reiterating this information. Other questions, such as precisely who the men at ICS were, I don't know, but I'll make inquiry in Switzerland to find out. In fact, ICS was imported into the USA and the former importer is still around. Perhaps he, as well as other members, can provide answers. As for the "mission" of ICS is seems obvious to me that they endeavored to produce very highly tuned and exquisitely finished parts and frames for the "carriage trade" sector of the bicycle business. With this market in mind, and with certain important exceptions, they sacrificed function to form and finish. However, if one values fine finish in bike parts and frames, ICS is without par. All their polished aluminum, chromed and gilt parts inevitably elicit the highest praise from men in the bicycle manufacture and metal finishing trades-not to mention collectors. They are sought and collected for their beauty, quality and rarity. Their high cost at the time of production severely limited their numbers and sales. Their frames, whether the "Magni" or the "Design" variants were beautifully constructed and finished almost always in the "chromovelato" style. As is the case in many vintage bike marques, the level of quality of the late ICS parts and frames is diminished. Furthermore, it was always possible to order an ICS frame alone, or with only a few ICS parts, using stock parts to complete the bike. Super Record ICS parts were mixed with ICS C Parts, Super Record, and even Shimano parts, etc. In the same vein, later owners of ICS bikes frequently stripped some ICS parts and retrofitted others. All these factors, common in all vintage bikes seen in their later years, must be taken into consideration when viewing an ICS bike currently for sale. In short, whereas some makers sacrificed everything to make their bikes cheap and therefore readily salable, ICS went to every length to make their product excellent and exclusive-a collector's dream. George George Hollenberg MD Westport, CT, USA
George Hollenberg MD CT, USA
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