I think Simon is right on target. Bicycles, at least quality lightweights, are largely a middle class "thing" in the US. Indeed cycle racing in the US is a largely middle class sport while in Europe and UK it has traditionally been a working class sport.
In fact, Mike Barry made that comment to me a couple of years ago about the different nature of the sport in the UK versus North America. He has a good perspective on the subject having himself grown up in UK, while his son Michael, of course, has ridden for the US-based US Postal and Discovery teams. (The younger Barry is also married to former Canadian champion Dede Demet).
I think Emanuel earlier did have at least a partially valid point about the cost of health care, retirement, etc. being built into to cost of US frames or paint jobs. Of course, the same costs or greater are incurred in the more Socialist European countries (and Canada). But they are distributed differently. So an individual small craftsman in a country with universal government funded health care and retirement benefits, could indeed perhaps charge less without affecting his access to these benefits. Of course, there being no free lunch, someone else is going to pay for these benefits, and prices of some other goods and services will bear the burden. Just a matter of how you want to slice the pie.
Regards,
Jerry Moos Big Spring, TX
oroboyz@aol.com wrote: Simon:
In my opinion, nothing Socialist about your comments, just your observation of societal patterns & class structures (which in turn might feed socialism, but have nothing to do with espousing same ...or not!
I agree that in the UK and Europe in general, the bicycle trade is most often practiced as a more or less blue collar, "tradesman" endeavor... and in the States we tend to elevate those craftsmen to artist and epicurean status.
Just a cultural difference and simply the way it is. Dale Brown Greensboro, North Carolina USA
-----Original Message----- From: simonandonandon@yahoo.com To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 6:12 AM Subject: [CR]RE: Respray costs
my experiences of living and working in the US for several years and here in london where i grew up have lead me to think there is a difference in attitude in both countries towards high quality 'craft work' and the value placed on it by both the producer (who will call themselves an artisan if they expect more money) and the end user. fwiw i work in the manual trades as a carpenter/cabinetmaker but trained and worked as a sculptor for many years.
in my experience working in nyc and marin ca., people with a high level of skill, who produce good work are held in higher esteem in the states than here. they charge more in actual terms (simply using current exchange rates gives a very skewed picture)and are valued higher socially. however they also seem to value themselves higher- possibly too much pirsig-. middle class/hippie/artist tradesman (of which i am one) can be a bit up themselves.
at the risk of being dubbed a socialist (that vile slur) i believe this is to do with the british class system. tradesmen must know their place etc. etc.
there is also a cap, in both countries- on how much you can charge if your work is just seen as labour+time+materials. the best way to add value is adjusting the the end user's perception of the event or the item, americans seem quite good at this, hence signed paint jobs on bicycles ( see i brought it back to bikes in the end).
i think mario vas does own his workshop, if he rents it it would be v cheap. he is probably very quick (he's painted thousands of frames) doesn't overly fuss the details (its only a bike after all), and also isn't interested in being RICH (there are still some).
by the way flawed economic analysis is not 'socialist' -per se.
simon bird peckham london england
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