George, I'm baffled that you are baffled. First, there is no single un iversally accepted grading standard for used bicycles. I posted one  standard that Jim Cunningham suggested to me, but again, it's not universally accepted. Second, there is no annually published pricing list by condition for bicycles like you see for coins or guns. I have a "Blue Book of Bicycle Values that was published about five years ago, but it is woefully inadequate. The price list that Mike Kone (an d Sheldon?) prepared that you see on Sheldon's website is a good s tart, but again, it touched the surface for makes and didn't address the ful l range of condition. No criticism of the effort, just not what you ar e suggesting/asking. Third, provenance is a topic that Brett Horton co vered very well at a Cirque a few years ago (2003?) that may still be availa ble on DVD from listmember Ken Toda (huemax@aol.com) or you can just ask Bre tt at Cirque to tudor you on provenance. Would it be nice to have a un iversally accepted standard for grading and an up-to-date accessible pricing guide? Sure it would. Is that going to happen anytime soon? I think not. Heck, we can't even get universally accepted definiti ons for "original"! Lou Deeter, Orlando FL USA
-----Original Message----- From: gholl@optonline.net To: loudeeter@aol.com Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?
Dear Lou and Don: am somewhat baffled by both your posts dated 4 June. Although I agree with the eneral conclusion that the more complete a description of a bike that can be
ade the better, is there already a standardized system for such a descriptio n? f so, where is it to be found? If none exists, creating one would be a good dea. For example the Antiquorum (Watch) auction house has a pretty decent tandardized system for watch description. eedless to say, when a bike cannot be examined forst-hand, good photos (not lways easy to come by) are invaluable in determining condition. nother important issue raised is that of bike provenance. How can one easonably determine whether a bike was in fact ridden in the Giro by Bartoli
or pick your own race and champ)? inally, as regards bike values, a very old and outdated list can be found on
he web, and I have seen someone email CR about the preparation of a new vint age ike price list but, have never heard whether it was completed. Such lists ar e ritical in other areas of collecting, especially those giving photos and uction values. In fact, even Internet services exist giving fine art values rranged by artist, date of sale, etc. A service with these features would b e ery helpful to the vintage bike collector, especially the novice. eorge Hollenberg, MD estport, CT, USA
> This is meant to be a way of describing condition, not necessarily value, al though I can see a logical correlation from the top to bottom ending in P (P oor). REB isn't meant to be in the order of value. I think this is just a way of properly describing the item. In fact, an excellent b ike ridden by Eddy Merckx would likely be worth more than a NOS team bike me ant for him, but never ridden. Likewise, a NOS Bianchi from 1951 might be worth a bunch, but a very well worn Coppi ridden Bianchi in F condition might be worth a lot more than NOS. Even a rebuilt or repainted Coppi bike might be worth more than NOS. How many of us would fault a collector who found a Coppi ridden bike with many parts replaced over the ye ars, with proper provenance, who then rebuilt it with correct parts. So, it depends.
The point being that repainted or rebuilt isn't the same as original. It is just that, a repaint or rebuild. Mike Schmidt throws a curve at this when he mentions a NOS 1972 Montelatici that had ne ver been painted. Then, when it is painted in 2000s, is it NEW or NOS or some other category. To me, it would be described precisely as Mike described it--NOS frame, originally unpainted, but painted anew in the U.S. in the 2000s. Agreement on terminology isn't always necessary as long as coompleteness of the description is made. Lou Deeter, Orlando FL U SA
-----Original Message----- From: Donald Gillies To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Cc: LouDeeter@aol.com Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?
Lou Deeter's post brings up a very interesting point. A restoration according to Lou's post) is classified as "REB: Rebuilt/repainted". f no modifications are made to the frame and the restoration is done n the spirit of "as close to the original finish, minus blems", then here does value now fall on Lou's list ?? > NIP: New in original packaging. NOS: New, unused, old stock. NEW: New, unused, recent production. EX: Excellent, virtually unused or unblemished. VG: Very Good, minor wear or blemishes. G: Good, moderate wear or blemishes. F: Fair, significant wear or blemishes. P: Poor, incomplete, non-functional or very blemished. REB: Rebuilt/repainted. I think it depends on the bicycle brand and restorer. For a MASI ainted by a MASI painter, my impression is that the value might be omewhere between EX and NOS. For other bikes (like a Raleigh) painted by a master painter, with ood decals, value might be higher than NIP (perhaps this is wishful hinking on my part...) For other items, such as a Schwinn Paramount painted by repaints- r-us, aybe the value falls to somewhere between G, F, and P... Interesting to contemplate. - Don Gillies an Diego, CA
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