Brian: It's true that bike collecting is not analogous to collecting fine art . But, I think it's an important and interesting hobby-and I thin k you, and a lot of other people, do too.
As time goes by, and the older generation leaves the scene, it's g oing to get harder to preserve the information needed to identify and re store bikes. It's also important to know what value collectors put o n them-after all they've studied them and put up their hard earned mon ey to collect them. Now, I think someone like you should be heavily involved in such a pro ject (puttting together a guide to vintage steel bikes). Wouldn't it be a shame if your knowledge were lost? Cordially,
George Hollenberg MD
Westport, CT, USA
Date: Thursday, June 7, 2007 2:00 am
Subject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?
To: loudeeter@aol.com
Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
>
> Lou, George, and all,
>
> I first have to admit that I haven't read any but these last few
> posts
>
> on this topic (but I have heard about it); but getting carried
> away
>
> with price guides and such for bikes is probably a waste of
> time. Why
>
> spend a tremendous amount of time making something that is
> casual and
>
> fun into something complicated. Bikes are worth what people are
>
> willing to pay for them. That varies. Get over it.
>
> If you don't know enough about the stuff to decide what it's
> worth,
>
> that's a pretty good sign you should not buy it. If you are a
> novice,
>
> stick around and make friends, talk to people, and learn who to
> ask if
>
> you have questions.
>
> Honestly, I don't think there are enough bikes and people in the
> hobby
>
> to make such a thing worth while; at least not for for
> everything.
>
> Maybe if someone wants to get the basics of what some of the
> most rare
>
> and desirable bikes are generally worth, go ahead. Everything
> else
>
> will be worth much less than those things. That's close enough.
> Bike
>
> collecting will never be as sophisticated as collecting art,
>
> automobiles, or watches. Simple fact.
>
> Just my opinion. If you disagree, feel free to give me a wedgie
> at the
>
> Cirque. Be ready for a hard punch to the kneecap from the dwarf
> if you
>
> do, though.
>
> Brian Baylis
> La Mesa, CA
>
>
>
> -- loudeeter@aol.com wrote:
> George, I'm baffled that you are baffled. First, there i
s no singl
> e
>
> un
> iversally accepted grading standard for used bicycles. I
> posted on
> e
>  standard that Jim Cunningham suggested to me, but again,
it's
> not
> universally accepted. Second, there is no annually published
>
> pricing
>
> list by condition for bicycles like you see for coins or guns.Â
> I
>
> have
>
> a "Blue Book of Bicycle Values that was published about five
> years
>
> ago, but
>
> it is woefully inadequate. The price list that Mike Kone
> (an
> d Sheldon?) prepared that you see on Sheldon's website is
a go
> od s
> tart, but again, it touched the surface for makes and didn't
> address
>
> the ful
> l range of condition. No criticism of the effort, just not
> what yo
> u
>
> ar
> e suggesting/asking. Third, provenance is a topic that Brett
Horto
> n
>
> co
> vered very well at a Cirque a few years ago (2003?) that may
> still be
>
> availa
> ble on DVD from listmember Ken Toda (huemax@aol.com) or you can
> just
>
> ask Bre
> tt at Cirque to tudor you on provenance. Would it be nice to
> have
> a
>
> un
> iversally accepted standard for grading and an up-to-date
> accessible
>
> pricing
> guide? Sure it would. Is that going to happen anytime so
on?
> Â
> I think not. Heck, we can't even get universally accepte
d defi
> niti
> ons for "original"! Lou Deeter, Orlando FL USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gholl@optonline.net
> To: loudeeter@aol.com
> Cc: Classic Rendezvous
> Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 4:50 pm
> Subject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?
>
>
>
> Dear Lou and Don:
> am somewhat baffled by both your posts dated 4 June. Although I
> agree
>
> with
>
> the
>
> eneral conclusion that the more complete a description of a bike
> that
>
> can be
>
>
> ade the better, is there already a standardized system for such
> a
>
> descriptio
> n?
>
> f so, where is it to be found? If none exists, creating one
> would be a
>
> good
>
> dea. For example the Antiquorum (Watch) auction house has a
> pretty
>
> decent
>
> tandardized system for watch description.
> eedless to say, when a bike cannot be examined forst-hand, good
> photos
>
> (not
>
> lways easy to come by) are invaluable in determining condition.
> nother important issue raised is that of bike provenance. How
> can one
>
> easonably determine whether a bike was in fact ridden in the
> Giro by
>
> Bartoli
>
>
> or pick your own race and champ)?
> inally, as regards bike values, a very old and outdated list can
> be
>
> found on
>
>
> he web, and I have seen someone email CR about the preparation
> of a
>
> new vint
> age
>
> ike price list but, have never heard whether it was completed.
> Such
>
> lists ar
> e
>
> ritical in other areas of collecting, especially those giving
> photos
>
> and
>
> uction values. In fact, even Internet services exist giving fine
> art
>
> values
>
> rranged by artist, date of sale, etc. A service with these
> features
>
> would b
> e
>
> ery helpful to the vintage bike collector, especially the novice.
> eorge Hollenberg, MD
> estport, CT, USA
>
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> rom: loudeeter@aol.com
> ate: Monday, June 4, 2007 2:47 pm
> ubject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?
> o: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > This is meant to be a way of describing condition, not
>
> necessarily value, al
> though I can see a logical correlation from the top to bottom
>
> ending in P (P
> oor). REB isn't meant to be in the order of value. I think
>
> this
>
> is just a way of properly describing the item. In fact, an
>
> excellent b
> ike ridden by Eddy Merckx would likely be worth more than a NOS
>
> team bike me
> ant for him, but never ridden. Likewise, a NOS Bianchi from
>
> 1951 might
> be worth a bunch, but a very well worn Coppi ridden Bianchi in
>
> F condition
> might be worth a lot more than NOS. Even a rebuilt or
>
> repainted
>
> Coppi bike might be worth more than NOS. How many of us would
>
> fault a
>
> collector who found a Coppi ridden bike with many parts
> replaced
>
> over the ye
> ars, with proper provenance, who then rebuilt it with correct
> parts.
>
> So, it depends.
>
>
>
> The point being that repainted or rebuilt isn't the same as origin
al.
> It is just that, a repaint or rebuild. Mike Schmidt throws a
> curve at this when he mentions a NOS 1972 Montelatici that had ne
> ver been painted. Then, when it is painted in 2000s, is it NEW
>
> or NOS
>
> or some other category. To me, it would be described precisely
>
> as Mike
> described it--NOS frame, originally unpainted, but painted anew
>
> in the U.S.
> in the 2000s. Agreement on terminology isn't always necessary
>
> as long
> as coompleteness of the description is made. Lou Deeter,
>
> Orlando FL U
> SA
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Donald Gillies
>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Cc: LouDeeter@aol.com
> Sent: Mon, 4 Jun 2007 2:30 pm
> Subject: Re: [CR]When is a restoration not a restoration?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Lou Deeter's post brings up a very interesting point. A restorat
ion
> according to Lou's post) is classified as "REB: Rebuilt/repain
ted".
> f no modifications are made to the frame and the restoration is done
> n the spirit of "as close to the original finish, minus blems"
, then
> here does value now fall on Lou's list ??
> > NIP: New in original packaging.
> NOS: New, unused, old stock.
> NEW: New, unused, recent production.
> EX: Excellent, virtually unused or unblemished.
> VG: Very Good, minor wear or blemishes.
> G: Good, moderate wear or blemishes.
> F: Fair, significant wear or blemishes.
> P: Poor, incomplete, non-functional or very blemished.
> REB: Rebuilt/repainted.
> I think it depends on the bicycle brand and restorer. For a MASI
> ainted by a MASI painter, my impression is that the value might be
> omewhere between EX and NOS.
> For other bikes (like a Raleigh) painted by a master painter, with
> ood decals, value might be higher than NIP (perhaps this is wishfu
l
> hinking on my part...)
> For other items, such as a Schwinn Paramount painted by
> repaints-
> r-us,
> aybe the value falls to somewhere between G, F, and P...
> Interesting to contemplate.
> - Don Gillies
> an Diego, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> George Hollenberg MD
> T, USA
>
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George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA