Bob Hovey wrote:
>From Nick Bordo:
> Common sense dictates that the biggest factor in price determination is
> rarity, and I think that there have been a lot more Herses found and ebay
ed
than there have been top of the range Masis.
I assume you meant this the other way around? As one who has been saving eBay listings of Masis for some years now, I can tell you that the upper tier Masis (Gran Criteriums and Specials, 1975 and earlier) number at least two or three a month, which I believe outnumbers the Herse listings by quit e a margin.
As to rarity, I'd consider the Herse to be a much rarer manqué than Masi... Faliero began using outside subcontractors like Confente during the bike boom and moved over here to start a second shop in the US which during it's tenure produced 500-700 frames per year. And at the same time his son was back in Italy also producing an undetermined number of frames.
The biggest factor in price determination is not rarity but demand... Price s rise significantly even on relatively common objects if demand is sufficiently high, while the rarest of the rare will not move at all if no one wants it.
Bob Hovey Columbus, GA USA http://bhovey.com/
I'm agreeing with Bob on this one.
I've always been intrigued by what enthusiasts perceive as the best bikes and by what standard they use to bestow that status on their chosen marque. As someone who actually builds and paints frames and has visited the majority of shops in England, Italy and Japan in the 60's and 70's and American builders since then, I realize that desirability and quality are only loosely related. It is all about marketing.
There is always some time spent in my framebuilding classes about how to promote frames since now many students are considering making more than jus t for themselves. These are some of my observations I share with them. 1. some significant number of frames need to have been made in order for them to be considered top notch. There is a reason Masi, Hetchins and Hers e used contract builders. We don't remember those builders who built similar products quality in smaller numbers. 2. they need to have some distinguishing characteristics to set them apart . Hetchins had curly stays and fancy lugs, Masi had his lug cutouts, flattene d chain stays and an M in the bottom bracket shell. Bob Jackson could put ou t the numbers but there wasn't something unique in his style of frames (although his paint was very nice) so they aren't desired by collectors as strongly as others. 3. make frames for famous people (which usually means a known racer). We like our choices validated by someone else of significance. 4. they were built to a high standard compared to their contemporaries although that standard is different today.
In my classes I'll ask which American builders do you consider to be the best and often Richard Sachs is mentioned (after they realize I'm not expecting them to just say me :). I think he is one of the best examples o f how, years from now, I expect his frames will be keenly sought after when they come up on eBay. This won't be because those frames are better (although they are very fine) but that his business plan was/is superior. He has refined a style and design, made special lugs to fit that style, is not a generalist doing repairs and repaints, etc., has someone else put on outstanding paint. All of this means he can put out more frames than his colleagues and sponsor racing teams racing teams as well. He also makes sure his website, brochures and pictures are very professional.
I expect that many years from now, there will be these arguments on CR wher e Sachs lovers will drive collectors of other less famous frames nuts. These lesser known but wonderfully built names will not get the value of the more common Sachs and some will scream, this isn't fair. Well, life isn't fair and neither is the value and perception of the quality of custom made frames.
I doubt my list of best English and American builders would be similar to most others.
Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan