...and are they relevant to the real world of 2008?
Garth wrote:
If the modern stuff actually comes with disclaimers and warnings that they must be replaced periodically or treated with inordinate care such as lube type and exact torque settings, then in my opinion they are not going to go the distance.
Garth,
Inordinate care? Come on, man, you sound like those old geezers (and too many young geezers) who wax nostalgic for Detroit iron, in all it's hopeless crapiness, because they are unwilling or incapable of mastering the technical subtlties of newer and vastly superior cars that are, "full of computers and stuff." Properly lubing parts and torquing fasteners has always been important. Maybe now it is a little more important. Then again, maybe the disclaimers are as much a reflection of litigious consumers as anything else. For what it is worth I have seen alloy bars with the similar disclaimers recently.
Garth wrote:
I just purchased some decades old Cinelli Milano track bars. I paid $46 delivered on ebay and this was about the lowest price I saw in weeks of looking. Someone had used them with brake levers and scarred them up a bit. I sanded them down and polished them up until the tops were pristine and they will go on my new track project. The Cinelli stem I'm using came off a 1984 bike and I similarly had to polish them up.
I'll use them for the next forty years until I die and then someone else will get them and be glad for the treasure. ...
I think two years life expectancy for modern bars and stems compares less favorably to these timeless classics. Ebay sales stats have determined that used modern stems and bars are virtually worthless at least compared to their original price. I've sold two Colnago stems in the last year - both for over $250.
Garth, So you coinsider bars with the original anodizing removed to be pristine? I suspect you will still have those bars in 40 years, unless they are a pile of corroded aluminum because you removed the anodizing. If one is willing to consider alloy bars with a damaged finish to be as good as new, then your bars will probably be as good as new for a long time. I agree that they will probably last forever since I have never seen an undrilled set break, and would not expect them to break in recreational use. I have seen Cinelli stems break, however, and one was on my own bike. Heavy as they are, failures do happen. Mostly bad QC by Cinelli, I think. Their stuff was pretty crappy by the mid 80's and it's hopeless now.
Yes, Cinelli bars are classics, but they aren't timeless. They are old equipment from a certain era. Old Cinelli bars and stems are absurdbly heavy by current standards. I have no doubt they meet your needs. They generally meet mine and they would probably meet the needs of most people running far lighter gear, but they are not state of the art. A CF bar at that weight would be extremely strong, probably unnecessarily so.
As for your stems holding their value while the modern stuff has not, you are really being a little unrealistic here. First, the stems you are talking about are collectibles. Even certain normal vintage stems fetch irrational prices beacause of collectors, and pantographed Cinelli stems are special and take things to the next level. People are not collecting recent CF stuff and they may never, but vintage parts for general use (makes and models not sought by collectors) haven't kept thier value either, and most old stems are not woth $25, let alone $250.
Garth wrote: The Trek web site is filled with precautions such as to warn owners of cf frames that the internal breaks maybe invisable and very dangerous. I have seen these invisable breaks turn into shattering messes first hand.
Garth, Look, not that it's a good thing when people's bikes turn into shattering messes, but I will bet you my last nickel that in most instances of these shattering messes there was plenty of external evidence of a problem. It was probably under a layer of dirt dirt and dried on Gatorade. People fail to inspect their bikes. Casual users, often great mishandlers of bikes to begin with, are now riding around on 17 pound bikes, somtimes 17 pound used bikes. Of course they break. What would have happend 25 years ago if thousands of dorks with a hankering to take up "road biking" had jumped on an 17 pound 753 bikes with ti BB and pedals, and alloy freewheel and Ergals... and never inspected anythhing? Bikes would have failed far more often than they do now.
The fact that your "light" 20 pound bikes are quite soild is not surprise. For one, based on your frame size you are not a tall guy. You're not a pro bike racer. 20 pounds is very heavy but current standards, and just a bit below the typical weight of a solid racing bike from the CR era. Durability should be expected.
Garth wrote: I have also witnessed by way of the classic rendezvous, a DeRosa frame bent into a frightening mess and recently massaged back into perfectly usable condition. That aint happening with cf and you know what? .... I won't be crying over the loss of these modern wonders either.
Garth, That Derosa is no longer suitable for serious track racing, which is what it was built for. That's not a problem, because it's obsolete for that use anyway, and has been pressed into service as a NYC taxicab, or pothole finder, or something. So what if old bikes can be fixed and new bikes can't be? That doesn't make new racing bikes bad for their intended application. It just doesn't appeal to you, which is fine, but you seem to be attempting to show that older bikes are somehow just "better" for some reason. I don't get it.
Jeff Pyzyk wrote: Like Garth, I have never had a steel frame bike break from normal use.
Seriously? You've never seen a steel frame that broke from normal use? I've seen at least five from a single rider. It's not the least bit unusual with bikes that get ridden hard, even if never crashed.
Jeff wrote: I recently had a Bianchi XL EV4 frame whose head tube nearly disintegrated from multiple hairline cracks in the alloy. The solution? Throw it away. Anyone need a Bianchi carbon fork?
The guy with the five+ broken steel frames broke two EVXL2s, both replaced under warranty becasue they were both broken within the on- or two-year warranty. They are light bikes and they break. They are significantly lighter than your AD, by a couple or pounds. You may be carrying around a lot more extra Guiness weight than that, as I am, but to a fit rider two pounds is a big deal. So, for guys who aren't racing and who aren't super fit, the EV XLs are not a good choice, but the doesn't make your AD a good choice for racing either. Also, those EV XLs are a lot stiffer under hard pedaling than your AD, and while you may see this as a harsh ride, a racer would want that extra stifness
Tom Dalton Bethlehem Pennsylvania USA
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