Re: [CR]re: old de rosa value..- market is changing!

(Example: Framebuilding:Brazing Technique)

Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 07:12:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [CR]re: old de rosa value..- market is changing!
To: sasha eysymontt <sashae@gmail.com>, classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
In-Reply-To: <1e4701b80805220557s1d2b5e54l5489550061ffffe@mail.gmail.com>


I think there is a definite shift toward interest in the decade of 1980 to 1990. Classic equipment in the minds of the younger collectors is now increasingly coming to mean Campy C-Record and the Mavic stuff with the "starfish" cranks, and yes indexed Shimano. Interest is now shifting from the era of Merckx to the era of Hinault and LeMonde. Frames that younger collectors remember from their youths now increasingly were built with investment cast lugs, and some even had carbon-wrapped maintubes in aluminum lugs, although full carbon frames have not quite become classic yet.

It may be that CR will need to adapt to this. It might be that Dale will have to return to the original CR rule that bikes must be 20 years old or more. Alternatively we may have to define classic bikes by construction and equipment rather than age. That is, lugged or fillet brazed steel frames, friction shifters, pedals wiith toeclips. Exceptions could be made for equipment actually made before 1983. In a way we already do this through the KOF rule that allows newer, or even brand new, lugged steel frames. But components are more difficult. If you allow C-Record, does that include Syncro shifters and SGR clipless pedals? And Mavic sold indexed shifters and clipless pedals (rebadged Looks) in the 80's.

If we don't change the rules, then the CR list will still change character, as we will no longer be in the mainstream of what are coming to be thought of as "classic" bikes, but rather we will be devoted to a smaller, earlier subset of classic bikes, like the Wheelmen have been in recent years. I really don't know the answer to this one. I personally would like to see C-Record and late 80's Mavic stuff allowed, but I can see how this would eventually lead to a list dominated by discussion of all-carbon compact frames with 10-speed indexed brifters, and carbon cranks and derailleurs. Yuck!

Regards,

Jerry Moos Big Spring, Texas, USA

sasha eysymontt <sashae@gmail.com> wrote: On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 6:17 PM, wrote:
> I think a big issue right now is that there is a shifting focus to 80's
> super record bikes. The DeRosa under question, the early
> need-a-new-restoration early Masi Pista that Scott Davis sold awhile ago,
> and the Cinelli 1960 high-patina-but-gorgeous frame that sold last week all
> indicate a market shift. There simply is no market depth to the market for
> these machines.
>
> What the market is saying is that bicycles built with stamped lugs (more
> time intensive) from what I think was a glorious time period (the era of
> Merckx) are not floating the boats of many perhaps newbies to the hobby.
> Part of this is - and this will offend - indicates a lack of framebuilding
> knowledge on the part of many buyers. Years ago our Gita rep said the
> biggest enhancement to framebuilding from a manufacturers perspective was
> the introduction of new paint primers that were great at hiding blems. Add
> that to cast lugs, and we are getting closer to the "plug and play" frame
> construction than many would want to admit.
>
> It was interesting that a recent post by a graduate of the UBI frame
> building program had to jump to cast lugs since the stamped ones were too
> much of a project. There is a very important message in that.
>
> So is this good or bad? Well I've thinned out much of my bike stable
> lately, and if the market decides to reward the mass-produced ($*%( and
> undervalues the "good stuff", I think I may be all for it as I will go into
> a buy-mode at some point again perhaps. But am I planning at the moment to
> revise the price guide I wrote years ago? Not until I can make sense of
> this market that has no basis in reason as I understand it.

Oof, Mike! I'm a younger guy/newer to the hobby, and I certainly have a /lot/ less interest in stuff from the 70s and earlier than many on the list. That doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of the construction differences between a 70s bike and an 80s bike -- it just means my interests are different. I'd argue that making an objective statement that one is "better" than the other is pretty tough. Construction methodology is certainly a large part of the hobby, but for some of us, there's more to it than the amount of filing required to make the frame. My interest comes from following racing in the 80s, and working at a shop that both carried the crazy/great frames and bikes of the 80s, but also had framebuilding in house (Proteus in College Park, MD) -- which brings up my interest in Yamaguchi, 3Rensho, and all the surrounding Japanese bikes. Different strokes, you know?

As folks my age and younger get into the hobby, the interest in the bikes of /our/ youth goes up... next thing you know, we're going to be reminiscing about 10 speed brifters that you actually had to shift yourself, rather than those dang electronic CVTs everyone has today...

Unabashed 80s fan,

sasha eysymontt, nyc.

---
,+'^'+ sasha eysymontt
sashae at gmail dot com - http://subtle.org/se
`+,.,+` new york city.