What a debate.
It would seem that for many collectors, bicycles belong to the 'decorative' arts and not the 'interpretative' arts.
Decorative arts belong in museums, along with whatever degree of conservati on is necessary for them to continue to appeal to their admirers.
Interpretative arts belong to concert halls and playhouses, and on the road . Apart from committed early-music enthusiasts, no-one minds that Vivaldi is performed by a modern Symphony orchestra. No-one is particularly bother ed if Shakespeare is performed by people wearing Victorian costume.
If I plant a Rohloff speedhub and S&S couplers on a nice old Jack Taylor, I might feel content that I am breathing new life into a firmly established, yet infinitely adaptable, original composition. Or am I deluded?
I think I read elsewhere in this thread, that the customers of constructeur s would have their bikes resprayed about every decade of their cycles servi ce, including an overhaul and update of their components. Witness Jan Hein e changing the cranks and adding a SON hub lighting system to the Rene Hers e tandem he rode in the PBP.
The question of what information is contained in bicycles that have essenti ally been archived (frozen in time as it were) is an interesting one. Are they manuscripts? No. Are they good examples? Well, put it this way - sa y Marilyn Monroe had a glamorous jacket that since her demise ended up look ing drab, blotchy, faded, a bit moth eaten and frankly not fit for an old b ag lady, would that jacket really tell you anything about Marilyn Monroe? W ould it communicate her life essence? No, no, no.
I'm not trying to annoy the fusty-lovers. I'm in Europe ('It's where the h istory comes from' as Eddie Izzard says) and more importantly from England. I suppose we have a different attitude to old things here. The crown jew els (that the Queen wears on state occasions) get polished regularly, I don 't think they allow any patina on them.
I think in the UK, we rather like vulgarity, garish colours and also things being spic and span, it is why historically our lightweight bikes were so bright. They contrast better with the grey skies, but also they convey sta tus and attitude as in right up to the minute, in-your-face, bling!
Our French cousins had a slightly more modern, utilitarian approach, but I don't imagine they are so different. If the bicycle is your sole means of carriage, and you know enough to own a Rene Herse, will you let it look sho ddy? I don't think so, not if you are the type who cares.
OK, that's it. I 'ave spoken.
Mark
Mark Lawrence Oxford United Kingdom
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-boun ces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of gholl@optonline.net Sent: 18 July 2008 12:30 To: Charles Andrews Cc: Classic Rendezvous Subject: Re: [CR]to restore or not, and how? the endlessly debatable questi on
Hi Charles:
When the rust/ "originality" ratio reaches a certain low point it's time to
call your painter-otherwise the "originality" factor will fall quite low.
Incidently, when does "originality" disappear? Allowing a bike to deterior
ate is simply an example of poor stewardship-especially reprehensible if th
e bike is an important one.
Furthermore, I doubt whether anyone really loves rust, otherwise they would
n't invent euphemisms such as "patina" to describe it.
As is usual in such matters, I suspect the truth behind the bike repair iss
ue are financial considerations not aesthetic ones.
When viewed through the lens of repair costs rust begins to look like patin
a, however, the problem becomes in getting others to buy into the delusion.
It's the cycle collectors' version of the Emperor's New Clothes.
Regards,
George
George Hollenberg MD
> Dr. George wrote, followed by Kurt Sperry:
>
> > You carefully sidestep the question regarding what
> "information" would
> be lost by a proper repair. I submit that no "information" would
> be lost
> and the integrity of what remains would be preserved. If
> necessary,
> various photographic, chemical, and even X-Ray techniques could
> be used
> to document the bike before commencing repairs.
>
> What would be lost is the bike's originality- it's very essence
> as a
> historical object. Repainting a 60 or so year old bike with hand
> pinstriping using the paints and techniques available today can
> at the
> very best only reproduce a hollow facsimile of the original surface.
> Even if the painter gets the color exactly right, catalyzed
> epoxy will
> never look convincingly right and the modern pinstriping however
> artistic will never be more than a pale replication. Is it
> really a
> "proper repair" if the object's originality is irreversibly lost?
>
> ***************
>
> And the BINGO! goes to Kurt Sperry, who has it exactly right.
> Repaint
> and rechrome that Herse, even in the most careful, expensive
> way, and it
> will not ever be as sheerly interesting as it is right now. not
> ever
> again. Now. If I could send it back to 1955, and have Herse
> himself
> supervise a full restoration, I'd consider that.
>
> But, since that's a fantasy, we're left with the possible.
>
> George, I guarantee you that if you were to have Peter Weigle
> himself
> restore that bike (and this is no slam to Peter), or Baylis, the
> result
> would be very, very nice, as good as you can get, but, it would
> not be
> what it is now. And if, as I do, one happens to LIKE the way it
> is now,
> in preference to anything else, then restoring it would just
> degrade it.
>
> There is no way to find an "objective" method of discussing
> this.
> Either you like it the way it is, or you like it some other way.
>
> Period. Totally subjective. I like it the way it is, and since
> originality is, in my mind, always to be preferred, preserving
> what's
> left of that originality is a no-brainer.
>
> These problems exist on a continuum though. A friend of mine
> who shall
> remain nameless, likes his original bikes, and rides them, even
> though
> they look like they spent the last 10 years at the bottom of the
> Marianas trench, and then were lightly scraped off. I'm
> exaggerating,
> but only a little. He likes them that way. I can't argue with
> it, but
> I can say I'd repaint the bikes he'd never touch. And, of
> course, there
> are people who would restore that Herse, but I'd never touch it.
>
> It is interesting to consider the possibility of a carefully
> aged
> repaint. CyclArt does this really well at their best. Their
> Velotique
> job. I've had a couple done, and was very satisfied with the
> results...
> likely I wouldn't do it again though, because, no matter how
> close you
> get to original, even to the point of fooling the emotional
> brain...you
> still know it's not real. Not original. And, anymore, that's
> all it
> takes for me.
>
> As a side-note, I will point out the auction I have on ebay for
> that
> Condor Pathracer. Note the pin-striping on that bike. You
> simply
> cannot get that kind of work anymore. Even if you could find
> someone to
> do it, and you were willing to pay for it (I'm sure some
> specialty
> automotive painters have stripers who could do that job and a
> lot more),
> the style would still not be the same. It just wouldn't. Those
> stripes
> were applied very quickly, by people who were doing it over and
> over
> every day. Those people, and that style, just don't exist
> anymore. So,
> such things are worth preserving even when they're very, very faded..
>
> As for whether it's somehow "wrong" not to repaint bikes with a
> lot of
> wear--as in, "the maker would never have approved of leaving the
> bike
> that way" all I can say is that the maker doesn't own the bike.
> I do.
>
> Charles Andrews
> Los Angeles
>
> "Somebody has to be tireless...
> or the fast buck operators would
> asphalt the entire coast, fill every
> bay and slay every living thing
> incapable of carrying a wallet."
>
> --John D. MacDonald
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA