I once saw a wheel builder deep in the basement of a bike shop doing what l ooked like a secret method to me: dipping the spoke threads into latex pain t. he said it made a well preserved, water proof bond and would never resu lt in a siezed up spoke. never saw or heard of anyone doing this before. anyone else hear of any such?
devon warner
san francisco, USA
> From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net <mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net>
\r?\n> Subject: [CR]Re: wheels, tension, nipples, and the A word...
\r?\n> To: tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com
\r?\n> Cc: "Classic Rendezvous" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
\r?\n> Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008, 2:08 PM
\r?\n> Personally, I don't have a problem with people using
\r?\n> Spoke Prep per se...
\r?\n>
\r?\n> ...I have a problem with those who use it to hide inferior
\r?\n> work. I see too
\r?\n> much of that.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Also keep in mind that saying oil doesn't belong on
\r?\n> spoke threads is like
\r?\n> saying that a Phil Wood spoke machine should be operated
\r?\n> dry.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Thousands of wheel builders before me for the past 100
\r?\n> years have used oil on
\r?\n> their spoke threads...what suddenly in the past year has
\r?\n> determined that to be
\r?\n> FATAL?
\r?\n>
\r?\n> When did butter become deadly - and margerine the no-fault
\r?\n> replacement?
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Kids for thousands of years were let loose to play, scrape
\r?\n> a knee, earn a
\r?\n> bruise or two...should I now tell everyone to keep their
\r?\n> kids in cages like
\r?\n> rats?
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Seriously...pressing emergency right-this-instant paradigm
\r?\n> shifting
\r?\n> fundamentals please...or just admit to being anal about a
\r?\n> personal choice.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> I use the nipple click and response torque as part of the
\r?\n> tensioning process.
\r?\n> Spoke Prep tends to muffle it...
\r?\n>
\r?\n> And once again, 2000+ wheels using bare threads and oil
\r?\n> with no problems.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> I'll up my wager. The challenger can bring a couple
\r?\n> 300 lb brutes to test our
\r?\n> wheels afterwards. The challenger is free to use Spoke
\r?\n> Prep.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> I don't need it - because I already know that a
\r?\n> properly tensioned wheel
\r?\n> doesn't require a "glue" to keep the nipples
\r?\n> from coming loose.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> To each their own...
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Bob Shackelford
\r?\n> San Jose, CA USA
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Quoting Tom Dalton <tom_s_dalton@yahoo.com>:
\r?\n>
\r?\n> > Robert St Cyr said:
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > With the rims I noticed a pattern of the spokes
\r?\n> > closest to the seam to tension more quickly due to the
\r?\n> thicker material in
\r?\n> > the rim at the seam. When at Interbike last week I
\r?\n> asked one of the velocit
\r?\n> > y reps If this was the case and he said it was true.
\r?\n> One can compensate by
\r?\n> > adding a 1 mm longer spoke or simply backing off the
\r?\n> spokes in that area ju
\r?\n> > st slightly.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Robert, I know you know this, but what you've said
\r?\n> might be confusing to
\r?\n> > readers. Changing the length of the spoke does not
\r?\n> change its final tension
\r?\n> > it only changes where the nipple sits along the length
\r?\n> of the thread. You
\r?\n> > might use a longer spoke in the situation that you
\r?\n> describe in order to get
\r?\n> > full engagement of the spoke threads, but that does
\r?\n> not alter the final
\r?\n> > tension. If the rim builds up in a way that requires
\r?\n> relatively tight or
\r?\n> > relatively loose spokes near the joint in order to
\r?\n> get it round, as they
\r?\n> > often do, then it's simply a bad rim, though not
\r?\n> necessarily unusable or
\r?\n> > defective. It's a common problem, but
\r?\n> lenghtening (or shortening) a
\r?\n> > spoke won't resolve it.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > This is not unlike calling the setup of indexed
\r?\n> shifter cables a tension
\r?\n> > adjustment, when it is really a change to the
\r?\n> effective cable length.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Robert Shackelford wrote:
\r?\n> > 3. Nipple glues (i.e., dried paint in the old days)
\r?\n> are too often a tool
\r?\n> > used
\r?\n> > not to build a better wheel - but instead to
\r?\n> obsfuscate a builder's
\r?\n> > inferiority
\r?\n> > complex over proper tensionsing. Tensioning a wheel
\r?\n> properly assuming non-
\r?\n> > defective parts make "glues" unneccessary.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Robert, while I agree with essentailly all the other
\r?\n> stuff you're said
\r?\n> > regarding the unnecessity of dial gauges (useless data
\r?\n> for certain, unless
\r?\n> > you're selling specs!) and tensiometers, I
\r?\n> strongly disagree with your
\r?\n> > assessment of nipple compounds. While they may be
\r?\n> abused by people using
\r?\n> > them to keep weak undertensioned wheels from rattling
\r?\n> apart, they also have
\r?\n> > excellent utility in correctly built wheels. My
\r?\n> properly built wheels only
\r?\n> > got better and easier to live with when I started to
\r?\n> use Spoke Prep. The
\r?\n> > action at the nipple is smoother and you can make
\r?\n> smaller changes in spoke
\r?\n> > tension, because the material acts as a lubricant.
\r?\n> Unlike oils and greases,
\r?\n> > WHICH HAVE NO PLACE ON SPOKE THREADS, Spoke Prep does
\r?\n> not lead to unwindling,
\r?\n> > and actually stabilizes the nipple. In many cases
\r?\n> stainless spokes in brass
\r?\n> > nipples can corrode and sieze, and Spoke Prep
\r?\n> eliminates this problem too.
\r?\n> > As for materials that form a solid bond, like certain
\r?\n> > Locktite compounds, that's just a bad choice
\r?\n> because it interferes with
\r?\n> > later adjustments. So, old school stuff like
\r?\n> honey, linseed oil, or old
\r?\n> > paint (new to me) might be be more period correct, but
\r?\n> Spoke Prep is a great
\r?\n> > product for skilled builders. Pure lubes (oils and
\r?\n> greases) and glues
\r?\n> > (locktite) are more than a little problematic. Lube
\r?\n> on the nipple seat is a
\r?\n> > different matter, and not a problem in my experience,
\r?\n> though I only do it
\r?\n> > where I can feel a need.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Tom Harriman wrote:
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Having both ridden both store bought wheels and wheels
\r?\n> of my own making, I
\r?\n> > would like to shed a little light on this subject...
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > We should all take comfort and pride in the fact that
\r?\n> we are helping to keep
\r?\n> > the art of wheel build alive and strong in our
\r?\n> culture.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Tom,
\r?\n> > Thanks for shedding light on this, but the question
\r?\n> was directed specifically
\r?\n> > at Earle, and having built a few hundred wheels myself
\r?\n> and handled thousands
\r?\n> > of machine buit wheels, I am familiar with the
\r?\n> differences.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > When the final result of a job correctly done looks
\r?\n> the same, and IS
\r?\n> > the same, irrespective of who did it, it is NOT
\r?\n> art. Calling wheelbuilding
\r?\n> > art contributes to the overblown mystique of this
\r?\n> basic skill.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > I realize that I sound a bit terse here, but I
\r?\n> sometimes feel like people
\r?\n> > don't read all the words my messages. I think it
\r?\n> was pretty clear where I
\r?\n> > was headed in my message to Earle, which is that I
\r?\n> don't think he has any
\r?\n> > objective basis for his unusually high regard for his
\r?\n> own product, and I
\r?\n> > certainly don't think of wheelbuilding as some
\r?\n> mystical craft, let alone
\r?\n> > art. It reminds me of the day I received a resprayed
\r?\n> frame in the mail from
\r?\n> > an unnamed painter, and without telling me he added a
\r?\n> large, conspicuous and
\r?\n> > especially ugly decal to advertize his company under
\r?\n> my clear coat. When I
\r?\n> > questioned it, he was puzzled as to why I took issue,
\r?\n> and said it was "like
\r?\n> > an artist signing his work." When I choose the
\r?\n> single color, provide the
\r?\n> > decals and specify their placement, where is the art?
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Tom Dalton
\r?\n> > Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, USA
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Tom Dalton
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > --
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\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n> --
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