I think the Paris-Roubaix is a particularly bad example to use when comparing new racing equipment with old. On the flats, the biggest force a rider has to push against is air resistance. In time trials, we see lots of equipment that didn't exist 30 years ago that makes a real difference in speed. However, most of the stuff that has the biggest impact isn't allowed in mass start stages. And in a mass start race, they're in a pack most of the time anyway; except for whoever's pulling at any given time, the main forces against them are drivetrain friction and rolling resistance. Any technological advances in those areas are minute in terms of average speed of a pack. The other place where modern stuff makes a difference is in climbing, and that's only because it weighs less. At this point, it's not hard to find a -stock- 15-lb bike, and lots of riders are riding on the UCI weight limit. Remember that "legalize my Cannondale" ad campaign, and the little weights stuck to the top tubes of the bikes?
And as far as the Paris-Roubaix goes, vintage bike enthusiasts and "retro-grouches" all like to point out that modern bikes have gotten less and less suitable for riding on rough pavement as they've gotten stiffer and stiffer. That doesn't matter in most racing because it's mostly done on smooth pavement. But P-R has enough pave that riders have to come up with extra ways to get some give that their frames don't have. So a springier steel bike probably helps quite a bit. Modern technology, at least the stuff that's UCI legal, doesn't have much to offer in the Paris-Roubaix. But I wouldn't be surprised if the story were different for time trials or for major climbs.
One more comment about the original topic, vintage bikes vs. other vintage sports: Bikes contribute much more to the image of what we're doing than most other sporting equipment. Take skis, for example: If you see a skier go by 20 feet away from you, wearing plain/neutral clothing, you can see that they're skiing and have poles with them and you can see the tips of their skis. If it's not snowing and the light is good, you might take notice of their boots, but those vintage skis don't really contribute much to the picture. Lots of photos of skiers don't even show the skis well enough to see what color they are. But bicycles are different. If you see someone go by on a bike, the bike is a big part of the picture. Even if you just see them out of the corner of your eye, you notice if the brake cables stick up out of the levers, if the top tube is level, if the tubes are fat or thin, how much the fork blades curve, if it has a skinny steel fork with chrome on the ends, etc. All the photos of cycling heroes show enough of the bike to be able to roughly guess at the date from a general inspection of the components. So the bike is much more involved in the image than the skis are.
Bikes also have a nostalgic aspect because it's such a favorite childhood memory. Lots of us remember that first feeling of freedom when we learned to ride and stay up without the parent holding onto the back, and for lots of us a bike was the key to independence and self-sufficiency before we were old enough to drive. It's one of the first things people who are so inclined tend to take apart and put back together and tinker with.
All sports have their gear-heads and throwbacks, but I think that the appeal of vintage bikes is a combination of childhood nostalgia, the importance of the bike itself as an image; and the fact that the technological advancements of the last 50 years have mostly been small refinements, and the older equipment is still basically just as good for most uses as the new stuff.
Emily O'Brien
Medford, Massachusetts
USA, North America, Planet Earth
Solar System, Milky Way...... ;)
> -------Original Message-------
> From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org
> Subject: Classicrendezvous Digest, Vol 63, Issue 63
> Sent: 16 Mar '08 03:27
>
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> CR
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Vintage Bikes, Vintage Skis, why the difference? (Mark Ritz)
> 2. Re: Replica WC jerseys (ehbusch)
> 3. WTB ADGA 28A Saddle (Scott Edrington)
> 4. Re: Replica WC jerseys (Don Williams)
> 5. how to paint alloy? (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Jakub_Os=EAkowski?=)
> 6. WTB Shimano 600 BR-6207 Brake Parts (Jeremy Robillard)
> 7. Re: Replica WC jerseys
> 8. Fragile light vintage bikes? Naahhh! (Bianca Pratorius)
> 9. Re: San Diego Vintage Ride, Sunday March 15, 2008, 9:30 am.
> 10. Re: how to paint alloy? (John Betmanis)
> 11. KOF mystery Belgian racing bike (Eric Phillips)
> 12. Re: KOF mystery Belgian racing bike (Hilary Stone)
> 13. WTB: Shimano 7400 series headset (LTravers)
> 14. Re: Vintage Bikes, Vintage Skis, why the difference? (Tom Dalton)
> From: Mark Ritz <ritzmon@sbcglobal.net>
> To: John Wood <braxton72@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Vintage Bikes, Vintage Skis, why the difference?
>
> Okay John, you got me. I do not have the weather report for the 1966 Paris-Roubaix race at hand. Yes, other years have had strong tailwinds as well, with aveage speeds higher than years with headwinds. Regarding the amount of pave, in 1966, there were 22km of pave versus 53.3km this year. You can do the math. If you have ever ridden over truly rough roads, you would know that one can ride faster, with much less effort, over a smooth paved road than a rough one. As to how to quantify the difference, there are too many variables to make any sense of it. However, last year's winning speed was 42.181kph, compared to Post's 45.129kph.
>
> Let's throw in another variable as well: team tactics. That is to say, there are many more variables in ANY race than simply the choice of bike or equipment.
>
> I thinkk this is veering off-topic, so I'll stop.
>
> Mark Ritz
> Arcata, California, USA
>
> John Wood <braxton72@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Mark Ritz <ritzmon@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> John Wood wrote:
> "And finally, if modern bikes are so clearly superior in every way, why does Peter Post's record for average speed still stands for Paris-Roubiax?"
>
> There were two factors: first, a strong tailwind that year.
> How strong? Any numbers that we can compare to other years? Again, serious questions here. I'd find it hard to believe if no P-R's have had a strong tail wind in the subsequent years. I would think it would be easy to correlate wind speed/direction to average speed as well, if those numbers exist.
>
>
> And second, the number and length of the pave sections was shorter than the current race course. There was a loss of pave in northern France due to modernization, and the race had become more of a flat road race. The race directors started looking for more pave to bring back the character of the race.
> So, Post had an advantage of less pave sections, but current racers have the advantage of "significantly better" equipment. If the equipment really is "significantly" better, shouldn't that easily outweigh (or at least equal) the advantage that Post enjoyed? It really would be easy to draw out any correlation between pave length and average speed, if anyone knows if and where those numbers exist. Anyone?
>
> John Wood
> Red Lodge, Montana, USA
>
>
> This, of course, slowed the race speeds down and made Post's record almost untouchable. I say almost because you never know...
> Cheers,
> Mark Ritz
> Rainy Arcata, California, USA
> http://www.kinetic-koffee.com
>
>
>
>
>
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> From: "ehbusch" <ehbusch@bellsouth.net>
> To: "Don Williams" <donwilliamsjr@gmail.com>,
> <gregebrooks@comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Replica WC jerseys
>
> No one can stop you from wearing any jersey you see fit. If the
> manufacturers make them, do what you want. Beeing a racer, I believe you
> must earn the right to wear a championship jersey, they are quite hard to
> come by, so don't get mad if someone sees fit to let you know about it....
>
> Ed Busch
> Vonore, Tennessee USA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don Williams" <donwilliamsjr@gmail.com>
> To: <gregebrooks@comcast.net>
> Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [CR]Replica WC jerseys
>
>
> >I sure don't think it's a problem...
> > "Earning" a world champ jersey is for the top riders.
> > I think, someone that is a world class rider, that could earn one, and
> > hasn't, wearing one is not OK.
> > Same way most of the jerseys I see are yellow, I think wearing a Champ
> > jersy is a style thing.
> > Do you like it? Cool, so do I, ware it...
> >
> > Don Williams
> > Woodinville Washington USA
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:19 PM, <gregebrooks@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> So it's inappropriate for a 59 year old plodder
> >> like myself to wear my replica Molteni World
> >> Champion wool jersey?
> >> Curious,
> >> Greg Brooks, Ridgetop, Tennessee, USA
> >>
> >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
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> >> text/html
> >> ---
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> >> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> >> http://www.bikelist.org/
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Classicrendezvous mailing list
> > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > http://www.bikelist.org/
> >
>
>
>
> From: "Scott Edrington" <scott@edrington.net>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]WTB ADGA 28A Saddle
>
> I'm looking for a WDGA 28A Saddle in good condition. If anyone has that they want to sell, please let me know.
> Thanks,
> Scott Edrington
> San Diego, CA USA
>
>
>
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>
> From: "Don Williams" <donwilliamsjr@gmail.com>
> To: ehbusch <ehbusch@bellsouth.net>
> Subject: Re: [CR]Replica WC jerseys
>
> I've been a racer... I've even won a few club races... Time trials and
> mountain climbs, 30+ years ago.
> I myself think commenting on what someone is wearing is unkind.
> It doesn't bother me what anyone wears as long as they are being good
> natured about it.
> If someone, like me, 50 years old and over 250 lbs is wearing a world
> champ jersey for 2006,
> I'm guessing he didn't earn it and he's a fan of cycling, right on,
> good for him.
> Further if someone came up to me and offended me, about anything I was
> wearing...
> Well, I might need to let him know what I thought about it his comment...
> Riding is fun... I think people being offended or confrontational are
> silly rude and at times dangerous. we should have fun and enjoy the
> company of others...
>
> Don Williams
> Woodinville Washington USA
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:51 PM, ehbusch <ehbusch@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > No one can stop you from wearing any jersey you see fit. If the
> > manufacturers make them, do what you want. Beeing a racer, I believe you
> > must earn the right to wear a championship jersey, they are quite hard to
> > come by, so don't get mad if someone sees fit to let you know about it....
> >
> > Ed Busch
> > Vonore, Tennessee USA
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Don Williams" <donwilliamsjr@gmail.com>
> > To: <gregebrooks@comcast.net>
> > Cc: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 6:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: [CR]Replica WC jerseys
> >
> >
> > >I sure don't think it's a problem...
> > > "Earning" a world champ jersey is for the top riders.
> > > I think, someone that is a world class rider, that could earn one, and
> > > hasn't, wearing one is not OK.
> > > Same way most of the jerseys I see are yellow, I think wearing a Champ
> > > jersy is a style thing.
> > > Do you like it? Cool, so do I, ware it...
> > >
> > > Don Williams
> > > Woodinville Washington USA
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:19 PM, <gregebrooks@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >> So it's inappropriate for a 59 year old plodder
> > >> like myself to wear my replica Molteni World
> > >> Champion wool jersey?
> > >> Curious,
> > >> Greg Brooks, Ridgetop, Tennessee, USA
> > >>
> > >> --- StripMime Report -- processed MIME parts ---
> > >> multipart/alternative
> > >> text/plain (text body -- kept)
> > >> text/html
> > >> ---
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Classicrendezvous mailing list
> > >> Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > >> http://www.bikelist.org/
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Classicrendezvous mailing list
> > > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > > http://www.bikelist.org/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> From: "Jakub Oskowski" <osekowski@gmail.com>
> To: Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]how to paint alloy?
>
> as in the subject - could enybody please tell me, what is the easiest way of
> painting alloy? i heard that i cannot just paint it with spray as i do with
> steel.
>
> Kuba Osekowski
> Polska
>
>
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>
> From: "Jeremy Robillard" <robillj@gmail.com>
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Subject: [CR]WTB Shimano 600 BR-6207 Brake Parts
>
> Hello,
>
> I am looking for a set of Shimano 600 BR-6207 brakes. I have a set, however,
> the 'Eccentric Type Quick Releases' on both are shot and need to be
> replaced. If anyone has a set worthy of being parted out (cosmetics not
> important) please contact me. Also, I have the Shimano 600 EX Dealers
> Catalog from '83 and I just noticed that there is a longer reach set. Mine
> are the BR 6207-49 type with a reach of 39mm to 49mm. However, they also
> produced a BR-6207-57 type with a reach of 57mm to 47mm. If someone has a
> set of the 57 type in good condition, feel free to contact me.
>
> The longer reach would make mounting my fenders a heck of a lot easier,
> currently I have little or no clearance and anything thinker than a pine
> needle stuck to my tire can be heard scraping the inside of my fender.
>
> As always, thanks for anyones help.
>
> Jeremy Robillard
> Portland, Oregon USA
>
> Currently, tinkering with bike parts while drinking a Guiness between sips
> of fine 10 year old whiskey, and preparing some colcannon, potato & pork
> bangers, and fresh tomato steaks. Happy St. Patrick's Day (even if it had to
> moved by the papacy). Oh well, I guess I will just have to celebrate twice
> this year!
>
>
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>
> From: LouDeeter@aol.com
> Subject: Re: [CR]Replica WC jerseys
>
> I don't have a problem with someone wearing a jersey in a group, social ride
> that they didn't earn. Geez, it seems kind of anal to me to b