Dean,
I think your point is that 1970 circa Raleigh Pro's were poorly made and poor racing bikes. Fair enough. I wager half the bike boom bikes were poorly made. And Pro's may even had been poor racing bikes but that's much more subjective. They weren't heavy and had full Campy components. I would guess many were raced and performed about the same as any other production bike in their class. I saw two mink blue and silver Pro's at PBP this year. Both were converted to fixed gear and both were ridden in a 1200 km event. While I can't be sure their riders finished the1200km, I'm almost certain they finished their qualifying 200, 300, 400 and 600km brevets on them. So obviously someone finds them comfortable enough.
However, our brethren in England probably don't even understand what we're arguing about. They KNOW there were HUNDREDS of better frames available to them back in the day. I'd try to collect them but there's just too many. And that's just the ones with which I'm familiar. For every one with which I am familiar there are at least ten whose name I've never heard.
I do find it hard to believe that 5 or 6 Ilkeston frames sold by your shop had chainstay/dropout failures. I'd wager there were not many shops in the US that sold 5 or 6 Team frames total. About how many Team frames did your shop sell? 5 or 6 failures out of even 50 frames would have been an incredibly high rate of failure, even for the 753 frames. And your boss allowed you to torch up and fix the failed frames? Were they then returned to the customer? What about re-painting? Your customers would pay big bux for a Team frame and then put up with a bike shop brazing fix and a red can of Krylon? I always thought the frame was sent back to Raleigh and the customer was given a new frame replacement or a factory repaired frame.
One thing we certainly do agree upon is the quality of American builders. My best, prettiest, cleanest, (whatever you want to call it) frames are all American. Eisentraut, Gordon, Weigle, Kvale, Gangl, Wizard, Mclean and soon, I hope, Merz. These are all as good or better than anything from Italy, France or England, at least that I've seen. And I'm not sure they all were copying Italian design. Let's end this annual thread on Raleighs and morph it into a discussion on the influences of American frame-builders before Peter Kohler sneaks in your basement with three cans of Krylon (for our non-American friends Krylon is spray paint) and you wake up tomorrow with a red, yellow and black Colnago/Pog/DeRosa. And if anyone wants, I'll ring up Mr. Eisentraut and ask him his design influences. And Bruce, if you're reading, what were yours?
Dean, sorry for the double post.
Mea culpa: I misspelled Worksop. Sorry!
Brian: Ilkeston produced about 600/700 Team frames a year in their heyday. I'm not sure if overproduction was a problem. They did have GOD (Gerald O'Donovan) on their side. I sold a 19-1/2" 1971 International last year to Tattoo of Fantasy Island fame. Sorry, it would been your perfect size. ;-) BTW, the money order's in the mail. I owe you a beer at Cirque.
Paramounts beat Pros for wall hangers. I got 2 1974 Paramounts, one men's, one mixte. The guy I bought them from said he walked into the bike shop, walked out with the two, parked them in the garage and sold them to me 32 years later. They look it too.
I'm pretty sure the Team Pros of the TI Raleigh Team were produced at Ilkeston by the same fine English chaps that would make one for you or me. But I could be wrong, Mike Mullet would know for sure.
George Allen Lexington, KY USA
dean 53x13 wrote:
> George...the point I brought up and that Brian B. seconded was that
> the Ralieigh PRO, and to some extent, the International models were
> pretty sketchy when it came to the framebuilding. Brian's experience
> in noting that the dt and st had tack brazing when attached to the BB
> shell is NOT, and I mean this seriously, NOT an unusual occurence. A
> lot of these came apart. Brian was certinaly more forward and braver
> in his comments than I, but while I understand the attraction to the
> top end bikes many of us saw at our LBS in the day, these units in
> question were not great. And I can tell you, I worked on a number of
> Ilkeston built frames that had similar problems, although the five or
> six that came to mind were chainstay/dropout failures. At least that
> was what my shop owner allowed me to torch up and fix.
> This shouldn't happen. They weren't very pretty, as you state, but a
> lot of bikes in the 70's didn;t have pretty lugwork. I know a lot of
> people that raced on them (Raleigh Pros), and they were not good
> racing bikes, per se....too stiff in the seat stays, making for a
> jarring ride (although the fastback seat cluster of the Pro looked
> nice) and too dead in the sprints...they just did not corner as well
> or handle as well as most bikes of that era, including the PX-10 and
> Motobecanes. Long rides on them were, well, not as 'nice' as long
> rides on others. Once Italian bikes became popular in the mid 70's,
> framebuilders here started copying those designs and then experimented
> from there...the good steel builders (Baylis is certainly one of them)
> (thanks to Masi, Sachs, Lippy, Eisentraut, etc.) seemed to really take
> off and fly forward...while Raleigh got bought by Huffy, and then by
> Darby, and then....(Many argue that Raleigh after England was actually
> far better than Raleigh solely in England). I just don't get the
> attraction to them as machines...
> Ah well, ten cents now, not two....
> Cheers, Dean Patterson
> Alpine CA USA
>
> */James G Allen <jgallen@lexairinc.com>/* wrote:
>
> I think you guys need to make a distinction between Workshop-built
> and
> Ilkeston-built frames. I'll be the first to agree that some of the
> Workshop stuff was as crappy as any old PX-10 ;-) . However, the
> Ilkeston frames were a different story entirely. While not much
> time was
> spent filing/shaping lugs (these were production bikes after all)
> these
> were still well-built frames with a true racing pedigree. Brian,
> tell us
> about the build quality of some other sought-after Italian frames.
> Some
> famous nameplates weren't always paragons of frame-building virtue
> either, were they? And I've heard aspersions cast at the build
> quality
> of some high-dollar French steel as well. I think it a little
> unfair to
> trash all things Raleigh because some Internationals and Super
> Courses
> were thrown together poorly. Plus, it is a historical fact that
> riders
> on Ilkeston-built Raleighs thrashed their competition in the
> late1970's/early 1980's.
>
>
> George Allen
> Lexington, Ky
> USA
>
>
>
>
> brianbaylis@juno.com wrote:
> > Dean,
> >
> > I have to agree with you. 70's Raleighs are my choice for the
> worst cons
> > truction of any frame that we commonly see and know. I'd take a
> PX-10 ov
> > er a Raleigh in a heartbeat, insofar as construction goes. I've
> seen a g
> > ood number of Raleigh Pro frames that were tack brazed at the
> DT/BB junc
> > tion and ST/BB junction but never got the rest of the braze
> material add
> > ed. All kinds of other stuff too.
> >
> > Raleigh is my last choice for a bicycle. Sorry guys.
> >
> > Brian Baylis
> > La Mesa, CA
> >
> >
> >
> > -- dean 53x13 wrote:
> > I know there is a certain appeal to these old Raleigh Pro and
> Internatio
> > nal frames, but really, people, and I know this is MY OPINION
> only, whic
> > h may not be worth much...but they are not a good value. These
> bikes wer
> > e pretty poorly brazed....I worked in Raleigh shops for years as
> a teena
> > ger and college student, and we had a lot of bad ones. They rode
> okay, b
> > ut on the stiff and dull side, at least IMHO.
> > Just two cents.
> > Dean Patterson
> > Alpine, CA USA
> >
> > Peter Naiman wrote: Jack; I was cruising the w
> > eb doing my usual Hetchin's search and noticed the advert which
> I think
> > you're referring to. Below is the URL to the advert on Craigslist.
> >
> > http://boston.craigslist.org/
> >
> > I called as well and if the bike is mint why the seller using a
> stock
> > photo on Craigslist, and
> >
> > willing to email photos. He might be honest, but seems a bit
> fishy. Pl
> > us the advert has been around for a while. The only way to buy
> is if you
> > know someone close by who could check out the bike and purchase
> it for
> > you. My thoughts !!
> >
> >
> > Peter Naiman
> > Milwaukee, WI USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jackson Kokeny wrote:
> > Careful with this one. If the fluctuation in model year and list
> price
> > isn't
> > enough of a red flag, I offered the guy $700 (this was on the
> 1974 $1,00
> > 0
> > version from a few weeks ago). He accepted and I haven't heard
> from him
> > since. Could be he's just playing the market or could be he's
> collecting
> >
> > numbers (*no emails*) for his boss at for 24 Hour Fitness. In
> any case,
> > I'm
> > not touching it, but I did manage to get a few fuzzy photos of
> it if any
> > one
> > else wants to have a go. Hit me up off list and I'll share the
> pics. Oth
> > er
> > than some hideous bar tape (which I ironically just replaced on
> my non-m
> > int
> > '74), it does appear to be a nice mount.
> >
> > Jackson Kokeny
> > Aspen CO
> > USA
> >
> >
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> > Dean Patterson
> > Alpine, CA, USA
> > DPCowboy
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> Dean Patterson
> Alpine, CA, USA
> DPCowboy
>
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