<< I think you are making a somewhat inappropriate sweeping generalization here. >>
I hate that word "inappropriate" in fact, I think it's inappropriate. :) Better to leave it out or replace it with something nicer like "maybe not quite accurate" or whatever, no?
Dale Brown Greensboro, North Carolina USA http://www.classicrendezvous.com
-----Original Message----- From: gpvb1@comcast.net To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Sent: Wed, 21 May 2008 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [CR] Was: OLD DeRosa on Ebay. Now: why some more $?
Dr. H.:
While there is certainly much truth in what you say, I think you are making a somewhat inappropriate sweeping generalization here.
Many 'classic' framebuilding shops began as one-man operations (or are still one-man operations!), so it is well-known precisely who built your frame, in many of those cases. I can think of an awful lot of American frames that fall into that category, as well as quite a few others, world-wide. I sure know who made my Nagasawa, Nobilette, and Wastyn, for example. My wife's favorite, her 1981 Guerciotti with sloppy brazing, and metal filings and dirt under the paint?? Uh, OK, you got me there....
Cheers,
Greg Parker (Not a Doctor, but I play at being an Engineer in...) Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 17:00:29 +0000 (GMT) From: gholl@optonline.net To: Dale Brown <oroboyz@aol.com> Cc: Classic Rendezvous <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: Re: [CR] Was: OLD DeRosa on Ebay. Now: why some more $?
Dale: Never was there a more accurate post put on CR. There is nothing inherently superior about one vintage bike with respect to another, save the notion, which cannot be proven, that it was personally made by
a builder admired by the purchaser. Even such an idea is flawed, since bike manufacture represents the efforts of many, and even the best may produce a flawed bike. Another line of reasoning is that the earlier a bike, the more likely it might have been made by an individual maker since the firm was smaller
at an earlier period, etc. A similar sort of thinking is that the bikes owned by
a champion rider were more likely to have been touched by the master. Again, in
the case of an individual bike, it is almost impossible to prove whether the
master builder himself took a hand-what is bought by the collector is the bike
and the myth surrounding the bike.
Condition, alleged originality, etc., also influence the value of vintage bikes.
But, in my short exposure
to the hobby, I have learned that these qualities are also "vaporous" as you
say.
I also looked at the eBay auction of this De Rosa frameset. However, when I
began to calculate the cost of purchase and restoration, I quickly realized my
role would be limited to that of a spectator, not a buyer.
Best regards, and hope to see you at the Cirque,
George
George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA
>
> I hardly claim to be an expert on DeRosa, (I have only 1!) but
> I think this question goes to an important underlying concept
> that applies to many other bikes...
>
> I think that the closer a product like this is to the hands of
> the maker, to a low production item or a custom, made to order
> item... the more it is valued. Value (intrinsic and monetary) is
> all also tied in nostalgia, prestige of palmares, design
> features, and other vaporous elements. But think about Masi
> being the "tailor" and Ugo being King Eddy's personal builder
> (albeit for a short while)...
>
> In other words, the more the maker "cranks them out" with more
> and more factory and helpers and hype, the less we tend to be
> romantic and the quicker we reach for our wallets...
>
> Just my 2 scents...
>
> Dale
>
> Dale Brown
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos
> To: Neil Bonnick ; Dale Brown
> Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; marcus.e.helman@gm.com
> Sent: Wed, 21 May 2008 11:36 am
> Subject: Re: [CR]OLD DeRosa on Ebay #110253252979
>
>
> This reminds me of a question I've been meaning to ask the
> DeRosa experts.? I see some DeRosas go for $2000+, yet I also
> see KOF lugged steel late 80's/early 90's DeRosas go pretty
> cheap on eBay, a few hundred dollars for a frame or complete
> bikes under $1,000.
>
> So what is the the distinguishing difference between the
> valuable DeRosas and the not-so-valuable DeRosas?? For
> Pogliaghi, I take it the bikes produced under Rossin, then Basso
> after Sante's death are much less valuable than the ones
> produced during Sante's lifetime, while with Cinellis, bikes
> produced after the company was sold to Columbo are worth much
> less than those produced before the sale.
>
> The drop in value seems much less abrupt for Masi, where Alberto-
> built lugged steel examples seem to command a better price than
> a Basso-built Pog or a Columbo-built Cinelli.? I assume this has
> to do with the frames being built by the son of the
> founder in the same shop used by his father.
>
> So what about DeRosa?? My understanding is that the company is
> still controlled by the family and Ugo's sons are still deeply
> involved in the framebuilding.? So where is the dividing line
> between "real" DeRosas and less desirable modern ones?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
>
> Big Spring, Texas, USA
>
> Neil Bonnick wrote:
>
> Marcus and Dale,
> This is an interesting topic on seat stay tops.
> As far as frame builders casting seat stay plugs into the seat
> tube / top
> tube lug - this technique has been practiced as early as the
> 1930's. I once
> owned a 1930's Bianchi frame, minus the paint. You could clearly
> see the
> brazed joint below the bullet
> shaped seat stay top and how it was part of
> the lug.
> The De Rosa frame in question is definitely from the 1970's. I
> have a 1973
> De Rosa with the same features.
> Cheers
> Neil B.
> Seattle WA.
>
>
> On 5/20/08, Dale Brown wrote:
> >
> >
> > << I think of Italian style seat stays as being fluted in the
> 1970's, then?
> > moving to cast plugs in the '80's. I know there are exceptions.
> > Was DeRosa the first Italian builder to have seat stay plugs
> made with his
> > name on them?? >>
> >
> > Marcus:
> >
> > I am pretty certain that in this case, these are flat stamped
> plates,> brazed to an angle cut top of seat stay, rather than
> the solid plugs. I do
> > not recall DeRosa ever using concave (fluted) seat stay top
> treatment...>
> > Hard to say who was the first to use engraved/stamped/embossed
> seat stay
> > top eyes but my foggy memory suggests it was very much
> earlier....
>
> > Dale
> >
> > Dale Brown
> > Greensboro, North Carolina USA
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: marcus.e.helman@gm.com
> > To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> > Sent: Tue, 20 May 2008 9:40 am
> > Subject: [CR]OLD DeRosa on Ebay #110253252979
> >
> > I think of Italian style seat stays as being fluted in the
> 1970's, then
> > moving to cast plugs in the '80's. I know there are exceptions.
> >
> > Was DeRosa the first Italian builder to have seat stay plugs
> made with his
> > name on them?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Marcus Helman
> > Detroit, MI USA
George Hollenberg MD
CT, USA
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