RE: flying Duck chainguard
John, if not a Rene, surely Delage could have used it for a door-pull o n this Art-Deco beauty.
http://www.allsportauto.com/
> From: classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org> Subject: Classicrendezvous
Digest, Vol 69, Issue 96> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Date: Mon
, 29 Sep 2008 16:47:14 -0700> > Send Classicrendezvous mailing list submi
ssions to> classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> > To subscribe or unsubscribe vi
a the World Wide Web, visit> http://www.bikelist.org/
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Park TS-2 centering adju
stment> Message-ID: <50f0d99f0809291219m7a414f8ayecf83ec6abe893ad@mail.gmai
l.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit> Precedence: list> Message: 1> > There ar
e two ways to change adjust the calipers on the TS-2 that give you a> rough
idea of whether the wheel is dished properly. Instructions can be> found h
ere -- http://www.parktool.com/
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:52:43 -0700> From: Jon Spangler <hudsonspangl
er@earthlink.net>> To: Dale Brown <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>> Subject
: [CR]A wonderful drive train addition for your Cinelli...> Message-ID: <F4
6D2C19-C6D6-47FD-B8A4-D1E44123A8FE@earthlink.net>> Content-Type: text/plain
;charset=US-ASCII;delsp=yes;format=flowed> MIME-Version: 1.0 (A
pple Message framework v753.1)> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit> Precedence
: list> Message: 6> > Folks,> > Did Rene Singer offer this kind of compon
ent "back in the > day" (BITD)? I can certainly understand the aesthetic ap
peal of > something like this chain guard, but had not seen one before...
:-)> > > http://ebay.com/
> > Regards,> > Jon Spangler> Alameda, CA USA> > > > > --- StripMime Re
port -- processed MIME parts ---> multipart/alternative> text/plain (text b
ody -- kept)> text/html> ---> ------------------------------> > Date: Mon
, 29 Sep 2008 17:07:33 -0400> From: Bianca Pratorius <biankita@comcast.ne
t>> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Subject: [CR]Building wheels> Messa
ge-ID: <7f7f42a085790a3e0ff4f947f1b4b884@comcast.net>> Content-Type: text/p
lain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed> MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Mes
sage framework v624)> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit> Precedence: list> Me
ssage: 7> > As to the listmember that believes careful time consuming work
on a > wheel is anal - I must disagree. Anal has a translation in the > psy
chological world as someone who is overly retentive. It refers to > those p
eople who tend to collect. In that definition, most or many of > us would
tend to be somewhat anal. Now as to the common use of the word > anal - I
also disagree. Wheelbuilding is as much a meditation as > anything else. In
a world where so many things are rushed and done slap > dab - one finds so
lace in careful work which reveals as much about our > souls as it does abo
ut the physics of a well built wheel.> > My weekend's work resulted in high
flange track wheels with 292 length > db spokes and Mavic Open Pro rims. T
he reference books tell me that > these spokes when correctly tensioned wil
l have a tone when plucked of > A above middle C. The most off I am from th
at tone on any one spoke is > less than 1/2 step to A flat or less than 1/2
step to the slightly > higher B flat. Lateral wobble was kept to less than
0.5 mm and out of > round was kept to no more than 1.0 mm. I consider that
to be the most > successful wheelset I have ever built.> > The same listme
mber that cautioned us not to be too anal also stated > that he builds whee
ls to plus or minus 0.002 inch variation. I think he > must have meant 0.02
inch but even that degree of accuracy would still > fall in someone's defi
nition of anal. Most of our marriages will stand > or fail on the basis of
something other than spending two hours working > on a wheel. There's love
and communication in the mix too, along with > respect and passion. After
I finished my wheel, I was just as > communicative and horny as ever.> >
Garth Libre in Miami Florida USA> > ------------------------------> > Date
: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:19:37 -0400> From: Mike Schmidt <mdschmidt56@verizo
n.net>> To: Jon Spangler <hudsonspangler@earthlink.net>> Cc: Dale Brown <cl
assicrendezvous@bikelist.org>> Subject: Re: [CR]A wonderful drive train add
ition for your Cinelli...> Message-ID: <358934A0-E1F7-4039-87EC-A3110DF27CA
A@verizon.net>> In-Reply-To: <F46D2C19-C6D6-47FD-B8A4-D1E44123A8FE@earthlin
k.net>> References: <F46D2C19-C6D6-47FD-B8A4-D1E44123A8FE@earthlink.net>> C
ontent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp
=yes> MIME-Version: 1.0 (iPhone Mail 5F136)> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7
bit> Precedence: list> Message: 8> > I hope not.> > Mike Schmidt> Stirling
, New Jersey> Sent from my iPhone> > On Sep 29, 2008, at 4:52 PM, J
on Spangler > <hudsonspangler@earthlink.net> wrote:> > > Folks,> >> > Did
Rene Singer offer this kind of component "back in the > > day" (BITD)? I c
an certainly understand the aesthetic appeal of > > something like this cha
in guard, but had not seen one before... :-)> >> >> > http://ebay.com/
> First off, thank you all for both your public and private responses - w
hether > postive, negative or neutral - I read 'em all. Really I do...I m
ay not be the > best listener in the world do to my hearing loss and creepi
ng senility - but I > do love to read what people have to say.> > One respo
ndee either directly or indirectly got to the heart of why I am the > way I
am in regards to wheel building.> > I started out with a Minoura truing st
and at $19.99 back in 1983 - an el cheapo> > combo wrench - and dental flos
s.> > And I am proud to say - and damn glad - that I started out with littl
e or > nothing in terms of tooling. Because really, as a newbie who wants
to learn > how to build your own bicycle wheels - that is literally all yo
u need. More > importantly you end up understanding how it works - and why.
Anything more > acts as crutches that slow down the learning process.> > D
ue to the above, the following might come as a shocker to you - but is qu
ite > understandable from my experience:> > 1. Tensioning tools while nice
to have for checking consistency from wheel to > wheel - are crutches. They
get in the way of learning by "feel", "sound" > and "nipple response" wh
en you are approaching or have met the minimum tension > required for a whe
el.> > 2. Dishing tools either standalone or integrated also act as a crutc
h - mostly> > in that they slow you down during the truing and tensioning p
rocess. It also > hides from you the easiest to visualize representation of
what it is you are > trying to accomplish when dishing - that which you se
e when you flip the wheel > in your truing stand.> > ...so simple...so clos
e to the nose...but a surprise to most when I point it > out.> > 3. Nipple
glues (i.e., dried paint in the old days) are too often a tool used > not
to build a better wheel - but instead to obsfuscate a builder's inferiorit
y> > complex over proper tensionsing. Tensioning a wheel properly assuming
non-> defective parts make "glues" unneccessary.> > > My point is basically
- by starting out with the minimal tools - I forced > myself to actually l
earn "how" to build a bicycle wheel. Where the science is > concerned, se
riously - a high school course in physics is all you'll ever need.> > > Hav
ing done the above, I have also learned that the best way to encourage >
others interested in building wheels IS TO NOT BURY THEM IN ANAL DETAILS. T
hat> > can actually be discouraging. I kid you not...it scares people away.
> > Instead I take a few minutes to demonstrate lacing - most pick it up qu
ickly. > Then I'll tell 'em, grab a stand - ignore the other tools - play
around with > hops and drop and bends using a spoke wrench. Experiment all
you want. Have > fun.> > Then I'll invite them to bring their first few wh
eels by so I can tell them how> > they are doing.> > Most decide eventually
that it's not their cup of tea. Occasionally one keeps > going at it - ask
ing for finer points from me along the way - and by a year or > so - no one
is touching their wheels anymore.> > The greatest thing about learning to
build bicycles and wheels is that you > achieve independence - mechanically
and financially. You'll always depend on > others for tools though - you c
an't have 'em all no matter how hard you try or > how much you spend.> > >
I've built 2000+ wheels since 1984. Still build 'em as we speak. I rarely u
se> > a tensionmeter - and rarely use a dial indicator. I keep my dishing t
ool use > to a minimum.> > To provide a quality wheel - (decent tension and
+/- .002 in. tolerance) while > at the same time avoiding robbing my custo
mers, I aim to complete asymetric > wheels in aprox. 1.5 hours and symetr
ical wheels in 1.0 hours time.> > Sometimes on the asymetrical wheels I'm c
loser to 1.45 hours.> > My rates?> > Standard and Typical Aero> > 24.00> 27
.00> > Deep Section Aero> > 27.00> 30.00> > Wheels That Require Additonal C
onstruction (Mavic 819 Disc)> > 30.00> 33.00> > > Now some people are think
ing? Wow! Dude! You are too cheap...> > I say hold that thought...here's wh
y...> > > Too many times here in the SF Bay Area, I've visited shops whil
e travelling or > cycling - only to watch a wheel builder use spoke prep,
use a dial from start > to finish, use a tensionmeter from start to fini
sh - and then hang the wheel up> > as done or finished among others tagged
or stated as such.> > I'll examine the wheel and discover more often than n
ot - the wheel is > undertensioned - i.e., the spokes are going to premat
urely fail.> > Their labor rates for two hours of work? 50.00, 55.00, 6
0.00, and even 65.00 > in one instance.> > Most shops don't intend it - b
ut the result is the same - the customer who buys> > that wheel is getting
ripped off by the shop.> > > So I am going to piss off some people here eve
n more by saying the following:> > "If you insist on charging 60.00 labor p
er wheel for two hours of work and use > spoke prep, a dial throughout,
a tensionmeter throughout, and a dishing tool > throughout, then you h
ad darn well better have a tag on the wheel certifying in> > writing that y
our tensionmeter is regulary qualified at a machine shop and that> > you ar
e not using spoke prep in any way to hide poor tensioning skills."> > I am
guite honestly sick and tired of rebuilding brand new wheels in which > spo
ke prep was used to hide poor tensioning resulting in spoke breakage in onl
y> > a matter of months. DT Swiss are great - my favorite - but even they f
ail as > result also.> > > Now I'm sure someone here will take all of the a
bove personally and want to > spew vitriol all over the CR list...> > DON'T
> > Here's why...> > My name is Robert Shackeleford> My address is 3202 Eve
rdale Drive, San Jose, CA USA> My phone number is 408-238-4886> > The b
etting pool is: $100.00 cold hard inflationary Federal Reserve Notes> > The
time limit is: 2 hours> Tools allowed: Stand and wrench only.> Tools disal
lowed:> > Dial, tensionmeter, and standalone or integrated dishing tool
.> > Specs to meet: +/- .002 in. and minimal tension required.> > Wheel: Do
uble Wall 135mm MTB 26 x 1.50 32 Hole Alloy Wheel> > Test of minimal tensio
n: Bring your own chart and tensionmeter. I trust ya!> > Test of overtensio
ning:> > Inflating tire and tube and examination for s-wave and return to t
rueness after> > deflating.> > The first to finish withing the specs wins..
.> > > Feel free to request an additional 1/2 for yourself, or a reductio
n to 1.5 > hours for myself. I like a challenge.> > > Robert Shackelford> S
an Jose, CA USA> > > > > > > > > > > --> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing pu
rposes, a copy of this message has been> saved in a permanent database.>
------------------------------> > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:58:32 -0700>
From: mrrabbit@mrrabbit.net> To: Sadiq Gill <sadiqgill@gmail.com>> Cc: clas
sicrendezvous@bikelist.org> Cc: Bianca Pratorius <biankita@comcast.net>> Su
bject: Re: [CR]Building wheels> Message-ID: <1222729112.48e15d9834032@www.m
rrabbit.net>> In-Reply-To: <c76dc510809291509la3989dfkb4018f19da0055f9@mail
.gmail.com>> References: <7f7f42a085790a3e0ff4f947f1b4b884@comcast.net>> <c
76dc510809291509la3989dfkb4018f19da0055f9@mail.gmail.com>> Content-Type: te
xt/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> MIME-Version: 1.0> Content-Transfer-Encod
ing: 8bit> Precedence: list> Message: 12> > As to the +/- .002 spec...> > T
hat's Nashbar's spec from...> > > > ...you guessed it...their 1984? custom
wheel building pages in their catalog.> > > I had to rise to some standard
when getting started. Right?> > > =8-)> > p.s. (Seriously, I'm not kidd
ing. I bet someone else here remembers it...)> > > Quoting Sadiq Gill <sadi
qgill@gmail.com>:> > > Ahhhh...the lore of comic books. In the last issue o
ur protagonist Garth> > was doing some undercover recon of the JB wheelbuil
ding sweatshops. The> > current issue has him doing horny, sweaty, anal
wheel building (sounds more> > like a prison riot). I must say when I read
these, my brain adopts a> > Charlton Heston tone......> > > > Rok on Lib
re.............> > On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Bianca Pratorius>
> <biankita@comcast.net>wrote:> > > > > As to the listmember that believes
careful time consuming work on a wheel> > > is anal - I must disagree. Ana
l has a translation in the psychological> > world> > > as someone who is ov
erly retentive. It refers to those people who tend to> > > collect. In that
definition, most or many of us would tend to be somewhat> > > anal. Now
as to the common use of the word anal - I also disagree.> > > Wheelbuilding
is as much a meditation as anything else. In a world where> > so> > > many
things are rushed and done slap dab - one finds solace in careful> > work>
> > which reveals as much about our souls as it does about the physics of
a> > well> > > built wheel.> > >> > > My weekend's work resulted in high fl
ange track wheels with 292 length db> > > spokes and Mavic Open Pro rims. T
he reference books tell me that these> > > spokes when correctly tensioned
will have a tone when plucked of A above> > > middle C. The most off I am f
rom that tone on any one spoke is less than> > 1/2> > > step to A flat or l
ess than 1/2 step to the slightly higher B flat.> > Lateral> > > wobble was
kept to less than 0.5 mm and out of round was kept to no more> > > than 1.
0 mm. I consider that to be the most successful wheelset I have> > ever> >
> built.> > >> > > The same listmember that cautioned us not to be too anal
also stated that> > > he builds wheels to plus or minus 0.002 inch variati
on. I think he must> > have> > > meant 0.02 inch but even that degree of ac
curacy would still fall in> > > someone's definition of anal. Most of our m
arriages will stand or fail on> > > the basis of something other than spend
ing two hours working on a wheel.> > > There's love and communication in th
e mix too, along with respect and> > > passion. After I finished my wheel
, I was just as communicative and horny> > as> > > ever.> > >> > > Garth
Libre in Miami Florida USA> > >> > > ______________________________________
_________> > > Classicrendezvous mailing list> > > Classicrendezvous@bikeli
st.org> > > http://www.bikelist.org/
> > > > > > > > -- > > Sadiq Gill> > Richmond, Virginia> > US&A> > Latitu
de: 37.58> > Longitude: -77.51472> > > > > > --- StripMime Report -- proces
sed MIME parts ---> > multipart/alternative> > text/plain (text body -- kep
t)> > text/html> > ---> > _______________________________________________>
> Classicrendezvous mailing list> > Classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> > http:
//www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous> > > > > > --> > PRIV
ACY WARNING: For auditing purposes, a copy of this message has been> > sa
ved in a permanent database.> > > > > > > --> PRIVACY WARNING: For auditing
purposes, a copy of this message has been> saved in a permanent database
.> ------------------------------> > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:46:03 -070
0> From: robert st.cyr <rpstcyr@hotmail.com>> To: "classicrendezvous@bikeli
st.org" <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>> Subject: [CR]more on wheel buildi
ng> Message-ID: <BAY109-W41FDCED48D9F61CB015890A2400@phx.gbl>> Content-Type
: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"> MIME-Version: 1.0> Precedence: li
st> Message: 13> > > All,> I have enjoyed the discusion on wheel building
and thought I would add my t> wo cents worth. I have built hundreds of whe
els, finding the best results> following Gerd Schraners methods. I use hi
s techniques for the wheel build> ing classes I teach here at U.C. Davis,
finding them the most helpful and> easiest for rookie builders to follow.
> Most of the time I tension by "feel", occasionally using a tensiometer
to> keep myself honest. When building wheels in quantity, one developes a
fe> el for how the components interact and interface with one another. For
exam> ple, this year I have built a couple dozen large flange fixie whee
ls, 3> 2 hole, DT straight guage spokes and Velocity deep V rims. I sim
ply know > by squeezing the pairs of spokes whether or not I am over tensio
ned, unde> r tensioned or just right. With the rims I noticed a pattern o
f the spokes > closest to the seam to tension more quickly due to the thick
er material in > the rim at the seam. When at Interbike last week I asked o
ne of the velocit> y reps If this was the case and he said it was true. One
can compensate by > adding a 1 mm longer spoke or simply backing off the s
pokes in that area ju> st slightly. I think it is important to note that th
e tensiometer is a most> helpful tool, but is not the law. It is simply a
guide to evaluate the r> elative tension as compared to the lateral and co
ncentric trueness of a whe> el.> As with tolerances, one must learn to sa
y "when". You can true a wheel fo> r untold hours but there is only so perf
ect a wheel can be. Generally speak> ing, I spend about one hour for the
whole process from measuring, cutti> ng, lacing, tensioning , and t
rueing. I take my time and enjoy the pr> ocess. I do not care that someone
can lace a wheel in 5 minutes or less-I w> ould not want someone to blast t
hrough a wheel build for me-I appreciate th> e care and patience.> The TS 2
discussion requires some additional comments. I love the TS2 for a> ll my
general wheel truing needs. I find it to be the quickest jig for dish> ing
and truing a wheel. I have seven of them here at the Bike Barn, in ad> di
tion to a pair of the aluminum TS 3's with the gauges and an old Var jig.>
I think that each TS 2 has its own personality and each takes some getting>
used to. Some stay in adjustment better and longer then others, and some
> need repairs more frequently then others. Some of this variation has to d
o> with employees over clamping the wheel into the stand. For setting the d
is> h I use the special tool provided by Park, but one can use a properly
dis> hed wheel to set the jig as well. Having worked in numerous shops ove
r the > years I have noticed that most shops do not know how to maintain th
eir TS 2> 's, nor do they even use them properly. Many put a valve cap un
der one of> the calipers and only work off the other side. This is a compen
sation for > the jig being out of adjustment and not knowing how to put the
jig right. C> hecking once a month is all that is required for well used m
achines like mi> ne (we do 10,000 repairs per year). Robert St.CyrSacrame
nto, California> USA> ___________________________________________________
______________> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn \u201c10 hidden secre
ts\u201d from Jamie> .> http://windowslive.com/
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