Re: [CR] End of the line for production lugged steel?

Example: Racing:Wayne Stetina

Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:25:53 -0800
From: Jerome & Elizabeth Moos <>
To: <>, <>
In-Reply-To: <>
Subject: Re: [CR] End of the line for production lugged steel?

I was thinking the same thing. If it's lugged and steel, it should be KOF. I think Tommasini and Mercian are good examples. Both are on the CR website, no one questions their KOF status. Either will certainly build custom frames, but both sell standard models as well. For that matter, I think Albero Masi sells standard models under the Milano Sport label. And a current Colnago lugged steel frame should be KOF, although a carbon one would be clearly Off Topic.


Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA

--- On Sun, 2/1/09, spiney norman wrote:

> From: spiney norman <>

\r?\n> Subject: Re: [CR] End of the line for production lugged steel?

\r?\n> To:

\r?\n> Cc:

\r?\n> Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 11:53 AM

\r?\n> csi? very nice bike. how does a csi not qualify as kof?

\r?\n> because it was a production model? aren't the

\r?\n> latter-day italian lugged producition bikes considered kof?

\r?\n> even in the mid-90's, most of those csi's had to

\r?\n> have been made to order, and many must have been customs to

\r?\n> a greater or lesser degree. what's not kof? numbers?

\r?\n> i would have thought such a frame would have needed no papal

\r?\n> dispensation from the stern-but-caring listmeister. shows

\r?\n> how much i know.


\r?\n> besty,


\r?\n> 'spiney' norman neville

\r?\n> no serotta, but i like the looks of those tubes w/lugs

\r?\n> new haven, ct

\r?\n> usa




\r?\n> --- On Sun, 2/1/09, Harvey Sachs

\r?\n> <> wrote:


\r?\n> > From: Harvey Sachs <>

\r?\n> > Subject: [CR] End of the line for production lugged

\r?\n> steel?

\r?\n> > To: "Classic Rendezvous"

\r?\n> <>

\r?\n> > Date: Sunday, February 1, 2009, 6:17 AM

\r?\n> > I purchased a frameset Saturday that doesn't

\r?\n> really

\r?\n> > qualify for our list, but I asked Dale for an

\r?\n> exception

\r?\n> > becuase it is interesting.

\r?\n> > It's a Serotta "CSI" from the mid-1990s.

\r?\n> It

\r?\n> > is perhaps the last time

\r?\n> > that a manufacturer invested in dedicated tubing and a

\r?\n> > special lug

\r?\n> > set for it. The seat tube is tapered and the bb end is

\r?\n> > slightly

\r?\n> > oval. The top tube is oval at one end, and the down

\r?\n> tube is

\r?\n> > tapered. The

\r?\n> > lugs are really nice, although not thinned in the

\r?\n> style of

\r?\n> > top custom US

\r?\n> > work. Yup, too many were produced to qualify as

\r?\n> > "keepers of the flame,"

\r?\n> > but there is a lot that is traditional in them: All

\r?\n> steel,

\r?\n> > fully lugged, one-inch headset and 27.2 seat tube...

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > What's it remind me of? Well, think about the best

\r?\n> > production bikes of

\r?\n> > the 1970s, like the Paramount and the Raleigh Pro. To

\r?\n> me,

\r?\n> > these Serottas

\r?\n> > honor that history: production bikes built and

\r?\n> equipped to

\r?\n> > a very high standard. But, these late Serottas also

\r?\n> remind

\r?\n> > me of the painstaking work that builders from Rene

\r?\n> Herse to

\r?\n> > Bill Boston did to custom-fabricate lugs for

\r?\n> non-standard

\r?\n> > applications like tandem bottom-bracket tubes.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > It's a side path, and I don't think they

\r?\n> detract

\r?\n> > from the recent

\r?\n> > dedicated lug sets for (slightly) oversized tubes from

\r?\n> > Richard (no

\r?\n> > relation) Sachs, Pacenti, and others.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > These Serottas aren't particularly rare or

\r?\n> expensive,

\r?\n> > may be worth

\r?\n> > having as the end of the line, and a nice way to play

\r?\n> with

\r?\n> > other

\r?\n> > off-topic "stuff." But, since they are not

\r?\n> > customs and are designed for

\r?\n> > indexed gear trains, we must not continue this

\r?\n> conversation

\r?\n> > in Dale's

\r?\n> > garage. I'd love to hear off-line from others (and

\r?\n> > would share such

\r?\n> > posts if asked), and appreciate Dale's courtesy in

\r?\n> > allowing this

\r?\n> > exception to our usual discipline.

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > harvey sachs

\r?\n> > mcLean va.