Re: [CR] Rene Herse Ligtweight Record Bike

Example: Production Builders:Cinelli

From: Jim Merz <>
To: <>
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Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:27:57 -0800
Thread-Index: AcmJVaYt6kS59/dETh+lp7ziNBeeXwAAJXnQ
Subject: Re: [CR] Rene Herse Ligtweight Record Bike

No, I don't want or need abuse.

I don't happen to believe carbon fiber is throw away. If it's done correctly it does not need repair. In any case, the bikes made at the highest level of sport gives benefit to riders of all levels. If you were to look for a modestly price road bike today, say $700 retail, the functional details are at a higher level than the best bikes made in the period up to our cut off point on this list. I know the style points are not as good, but the shifting, braking, lack of flat tires, comfort are all better. I am not trying to be a smart ass about this, but I am just sensitive about making a religious icon out of bikes made in the period of our list here. There is nothing wrong with liking the old mounts at all. It's just that they do not define the end of development.

Sure, marketing happens. It has always happened in the selling of bikes. When I made my Merz bikes I realized that marketing was at least half the effort. But in order for marketing to have meaning the product must have real benefits for the end user. I have always fought to make sure these real benefits (testable, proven features) were in the products I worked on. As for making bikes that people use for practical reasons. The market for this in the USA is not robust and so does not support expensive machines in general. I know this is a noble pursuit, but my personal interest has always been in the very highest level of bicycle technology. In postwar France this was possible with bikes equipped with fenders and lights. Right now this means racing bikes.

Jim Merz Big Sur CA

-----Original Message----- From: [] On Behalf Of Jerome & Elizabeth Moos Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 10:54 AM To: Classic Rendezvous; Phil Brown Subject: Re: [CR] Rene Herse Ligtweight Record Bike

Ah, if Jim requires an argument, I suppose it's my duty to provide it, having started the thread.

I actually said one wonders if the bicycles AS A PRACTICAL VEHICLE has improved much in a half century. Jim cites evidence that the carbon fibre wonders are, when price is no object, able to produce a superior piece of sporting equipment that could easily be made even lighter than the UCI minimum. Quite possibly so, but Jim is talking about sporting equipment, while I, as I said, am talking about practical vehicles. I happen to believe tha bicycles can and should be practical vehicles, and that making them so could be of enormous benefit to the future of of the world, much more beneficial than a hundred TDF victories or indeed all the victories in all professional sports over their entire histories. After all, other than the few with a financial interest, who wins the TdF, the World Cup or the Superbowl does not make one damn bit of practical difference in the life of any person on the planet. A practical, dependable, affordable touring bike, on the other hand, can save one money, eliminate obessity, lower blood pressure, save energy and reduce pollution. To me those things are a hell of a lot more important than who won the TdF, or who won the Superbowl, which I've usually forgotten by March.

I think the reason the Technical Trials improved bikes in ways that racing never will was that while the actual bikes entered might not themselves have been practical vehicles, they had to have most of the features of practical bikes, like lights, mudguards, racks and bells. So the advancements made in the trials translated much more directly into improved bikes that people used every day to the benefit of the quality of their lives. And I bleieve that if a similar competition of similar prestige could be reinstitued, that some of the technologies now used on race bikes might actually be used in vehicles that matter in some practical way. Now I still believe that carbon fibre frames are to a large extent throwaway items in that they really can't be repaired, but there is no reason why they can't be made with mounts for lights, racks and mudguards, and clearance for practical tires. Except that almost no one is interested in doing so. Jan did review a carbon randonneur bike in Bicycle Quarterly, but that is an extremely rare bicycle. But such a thing might not be rare if there were a high-profile competition to showcase them. Especially a competition where the quality of the bike, rather than the drug-assisted performance of the riders is the major determiner of success. Not that I particularly welcome the concept of dozens of carbon randonneurs, as I'm still opposed to a disposable culture, but at least we could see what current technologies can or cannot do to make a useful bicycle better.

Was that the sort of argument you were looking for Jim? Sorry, I don't do abuse. As Phil quoted Monty Python, that's next door.


Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA

--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Phil Brown wrote:

> From: Phil Brown <>

\r?\n> Subject: Re: [CR] Rene Herse Ligtweight Record Bike

\r?\n> To: "Classic Rendezvous" <>

\r?\n> Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 11:38 AM

\r?\n> On Feb 7, 2009, at 9:31 AM, Jim Merz wrote:


\r?\n> > Ok, but how about the argument?

\r?\n> >

\r?\n> > Jim Merz

\r?\n> >


\r?\n> "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you wanted abuse.

\r?\n> Argumen is next

\r?\n> door."-Monty Python

\r?\n> Phil Brown

\r?\n> Of to woodwork in Berkeley, Calif.