I suppose that it is time for me to slow down, collect my wits, quit trying to intersperse messages typed to the CR List in between concentrating on organizing and packaging for our household move, and pay full attention to what I am posting to this forum - lest I otherwise end up leaving everyone with the impression that I have decidedly gone daft.
To that end, I pulled out those Cinelli catalogs once again, only this time, I did so in conjunction with having collected several sets of their various styles of handlebars and a proper fabric tape measure. In retrospect, I can only offer as some form of excuse / explanation that not only was I somewhat hurried and distracted when I made my earlier postings to the CR List on this subject, but also that the Cinelli catalogs themselves are less than crystal clear when presenting measurements associated with their various handlebar options. Specifically, they use an "A", "B", "C", "D" set of designations for the respective distances cited ... without telling anyone what the "A", "B", "C", and "D" labels actually refer to. It is assumed or implied that you, the reader, know which is which and what is what. So, when I quickly scanned said catalogs for specifics, I mistakenly used the wrong column (...i.e. the "D" column - you know, as in "D" for "drop") to reference the relative difference measurement between the models 63 and 66 Campione del Mondo handlebars resulting in my providing errant information. In actuality, there would be a 9 mm and not 10 mm difference in drop between the model 63 Campione del Mondo (...i.e. 147 mm) and the model 66 Campione del Mondo (...i.e. 156 mm) ... AND ... yes, Kevin, you would be correct that the model 66 has the deeper drop of the two.
A full and (...hopefully on my part) final accounting is as follows:
MODEL 38 39 40 42 -------------- --------- --------- --------- --------- Width "D" Width "D" Width "D" Width "D" Drop Reach ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ----- --- ---- ----- 63 - CdM 380 220 400 240 147 76 64 - Giro 380 220 400 240 142 78 65 - Criterium 380 120 400 140 147 77 66 - CdM 380 210 400 230 420 250 156 90 67 - Pista 390 108 163 83
I have taken the liberty of "translating" the "A" (...i.e. width), "B" (...i.e. drop), and "C" (...i.e. reach) references from those Cinelli catalogs in the above chart. However, I am still stuck for interpreting just what the "D" designation refers to. If anyone out there either knows definitively or has reasoned conjecture they might be willing offer, any input would be greatly appreciated.
-----> pre 1979 Cino Cinelli era (...i.e. crested logo - NOT flying "C")
model 14 - Pista (steel) - sizes: 38 model 19 - Pista (steel) - sizes: 38 model 63 - Campione del Mondo (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40 model 64 - Giro d'Italia (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40 model 65 - Criterium (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40 model 66 - Campione del Mondo (alloy) - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42 model 67 - Pista (alloy) - sizes: 39
-----> post 1978 A.L. Columbo / Columbus era (...i.e. flying "C" logo -----> through the mid 1980's - NOT the earlier crested logo)
model 63 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40 model 64 - Giro d'Italia - sizes: 38 / 40 model 65 - Criterium - sizes: 38 / 40 model 66 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42 model 67 - Pista - sizes: 39
Please note that for purposes of the aforementioned figures, width, reach, and drop are all measured from C-t-C of the respective tubes.
Robert "Haste Makes Waste ... of CR List bandwidth" Broderick ...the "Frozen Flatlands" of South Dakota Sioux Falls, USA
-----Original Message----- From: kevin sayles [mailto:kevinsayles@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:02 AM To: rsb000@hotmail.com; classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ??? (...meaculpa)
Hi Robert, Should that read '10mm drop'? [you wrote 10 cm].......and actually its the other way round, 66 [Merckx] bars are the deeper of the two [63].
No one has mentioned the 'other' logo......its not the 'flying C as in it has CINELLI stamped both sides........this logo is hard to describe, but I think it has on the RH side a logo that looks a bit like a sun dial, or a wheel with diamond spokes?........I have a couple of pair, one in # 64 Giro D Italia [before they ruined the shape!!] and one pair in # 66...........question is, which came first, this logo or the more familular 'flying C'?
Cheers Kevin Sayles
Bridgwater Somerset UK
(...meaculpa)
Blame it on my withering eye sight (...perhaps I ought seek reading glasses) in conjunction with the itty, bitty, little, fine print in one of those Cinelli catalogs, but I was incorrect in my earlier accounting ... AND ... I want to update the record for posterity as follows:
Wayne is pretty much "on target" with his assessment regarding vintage Cinelli bar widths. I guess that I would like to interject for the record a tad more specificity with respect to said measurements so that there is less room for ambiguity in the future when this subject matter invariably resurfaces once again (...i.e. check the archives in the future):
-----> pre 1979 Cino Cinelli era (...i.e. crested logo - NOT flying "C")
model 63 - sizes: 38 / 40 model 64 - sizes: 38 / 40 model 65 - sizes: 38 / 40 model 66 - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42 model 67 - sizes: 38
-----> post 1978 A.L. Columbo / Columbus era (...i.e. flying "C" logo -----> through the mid 1980's - NOT the earlier crested logo)
model 63 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40 model 64 - Giro d'Italia - sizes: 38 / 40 model 65 - Criterium - sizes: 38 / 40 model 66 - Campione del Mondo - sizes: 38 / 40 / 42 model 67 - Pista - sizes: 39
All of the above data points were culled directly from original Cinelli catalog and/or brochure publications. It is perhaps worthy to note that only the model 66 version of the Campione del Mondo was made available prior to the mid 1980's in the larger 42 cm sizing (...I happen to have a pre 1979 crested logo 66 / 42 designated for use on my 1977 Peugeot PY-10/CP Thevenet TdF replica). And in response to an "OFF LIST" question I received, the difference between the model 63 and 66 handlebars which are both given the Campione del Mondo "name" designation would be the size of the drop where the model 63 is 10 cm deeper than its model 66 counterpart. Finally, Cinelli uses the traditional C-t-C measurement standard for all of their handlebars as opposed to the O-t-O methodology employed by 3ttt - which means that one need take care whenever comparing widths stipulated by those two respective manufacturers.
Robert "I see said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw" Broderick ...the "Frozen Flatlands" of South Dakota Sioux Falls, USA
-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Wayne Bingham Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 2:44 PM To: oroboyz@aol.com Cc: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org Subject: Re: [CR] Cinelli bars 26.4 diam. old logo 46 or 44 ???
I had a discussion about this with someone in the past few days, so I just pulled my Cinelli catalogs (still organizing and filing all this valuable stuff from the MPI acquisition), and here's what I've found.
An earlier catalog lists model 63, 64, 65, 66 & 67, and only in widths of 38, 39, 40 & 42 (c-c). A slightly later catalog adds a 44 width. No mention of 46. This sort of validates my somewhat sketchy memory. -- Wayne Bingham Lovettsville, Virginia USA
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 3:03 PM, <oroboyz@aol.com> wrote:
> We may have talked about this in past years, I can't recall ?but was?there
such an animal as 46 Cinellis in this era? I was around then, selling them
and I sure do not recall such an option. If they existed it certainly was an
extremely rare item back then, imagine trying to find a set now! Ouch!
> Dale
> Greensboro, North Carolina USA
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Winnikoff <m.winnikoff@grafhind.com>
> Dear CR Listers,
>
> Please let me know if any of you have such an orphan or where I might find
> one. Condition is important.
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Marc Winnikoff