At 4:25 AM -0800 1/13/09, Norris Lockley wrote:
>Jan has criticised the "elegance and function" of the Philippe, and I would
> concede that at first glance the bike, per se, is not presnted to it's bes
>t advantage ie. the nose of the saddle is sloping downwards - never an at
>tractive feature - the bars are tilted backwards - as often found on a teen
>ager's "racer"..and the brake levers are in the wrong place. Oh..and the br
>ake cables appear too long. If Nathan took ten minutes to correct these err
>ors, would that make the bike more elegant and better?
I do not even look at features that can be changed when I look at a bike. I once bought an unloved Alex Singer camping bike from Japan, of all places, for a very reasonable sum. It was a camping bike in a dull orange, with braze-on brackets for reflectors everywhere, extra-thick spokes, and Grab-On foam on the handlebars and a porteur rack _on the rear_. It looked awful. After an overhaul at the Singer shop, with the offending braze-ons removed, new rear racks, re-spoked wheels, new paint and shellac on cloth bar tape, the bike was as it always should have been... See it here
http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com/
and in our book "The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles."
I do not want to criticize another listmembers frame in detail - the
Philippe is a nice bike, and that is enough. I just disagree with the
assessment that it is the frame of the century.
>
>IMHO I think that Jan and Alex are letting their ownership of their stables
> of Herse and Singers..and their investment both past and future, cloud the
>ir judgement. Clearly the three of us are approaching this Philippe from to
>tally different vantage points..they are collectors and investors, as well
>as active cyclists, and
I am neither a collector, nor an investor, and my "stable" is much smaller than you may think. Sometimes, a visitor sees a lot of bikes here before a photo shoot for a book, and thinks that there is an incredible collection here. But the bikes aren't mine, and soon after the photo shoot, they are all gone again. I get to play with them for a while, and if it weren't for the deadlines and poor pay, it would be a nice job indeed. It is nice to work on a lot of bikes, as you begin to appreciate the differences.
When I decide which bikes to put in a book, I look for the design - the overall line of the bike, racks designed to transmit the loads to the frame, that sort of thing - and execution - the usual clean brazing, nice thinning of lugs.
But what matters most of all to me as a rider, is how the bike feels
when climbing a long hill with varying pitches of steepness, and then
descending on the other side through off-camber curves with
decreasing radii.
>I am a cyclist, a collector for some thirty years
, and a frame-builder with over fifty years experience.
Norris, I'd love to see some photos of bikes you built... Can you
share some with us?
>Jan stated that he assumed that the Philippe cost less than Herse and Singe
>r frames. and implied that it must, therefore, be of lower quality.Does hig
>h cost automatically equate with better quality? I think not..but there is
>a case to be made for thinking it should do. ..or is there?
I did not value the bike based on its price, but I said after evaluating the bike based on the photos that it was worth its (assumed) price.
In any case, Rene Herse frames aren't valued very highly at the moment. Even the most wonderful Rene Herse is worth its price only for its parts, which is why you see so many of them ripped to pieces and sold on e-bay bit by bit. I hope this will stop some day, either because the prices for components drop, or because the prices of complete bikes increase.
When you compare this to a 1970s Confente, you will see that the Confente frame is worth at least 4x as much as the Herse frame, even if the complete bikes sell for similar money. The parts of the Confente are not worth a lot - you can buy the same parts kit on a no-name frame for very little.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
140 Lakeside Ave #C
Seattle WA 98122
http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com