I think "the perfect restoration" is an ideal goal, almost never achieved, if by perfect we mean indistinguishable from the original, even by the original owner.
To be "perfect" by this standard, one must not only seek out a painter who can replicate the often frankly inferior paint of many decades ago, but must also obtain vintage tires, tubes, cables, brake blocks, etc. With a bike like this one, the original owner is likely not even alive, and we will probably not ever know with certainly what was original, given that catalogs are often misleading.
I think Don withdrew his assertion this is a "fake", instead maintaining it is incorrect in respect to the too-good paint and, in Don's opinion, the 531 decal. This would be a "fake" only if it were offered a "100% original and unrestored" and if the price depended on the original conditional.
One is rarely going to find a 100% original classic bike, since any bike that was ridden any distance has had at least tires and tubes, and likely cables, replaced over the years. And most serious riders replace the saddle, unless they specified it, or they are lucky enough to have the original saddle suit them.
I own the rather contraversial Ephgrave No. 1, which some have pronounced a "fake" because it includes brazeons not available until after Les Ephgrave's death. But to me, snd some others who hsve ventured sn opinion, this only means it it has been refinished with some incorrect modifications. Indeed, IMHO, the brazeons argue strongly for this frame being genuine, albeit with incorrect updates. Even the critics concede the workman ship is very high, perhaps as good as Ephgrave. So I contend that no one with the skill and knowledge to produce an otherwise perfect fake Ephgrave would include such obviously incorrect brazeons. Rather like producing the perfect counterfeit $100 bill, then misspelling a word on it.
Regards,
Jerry Moos
Big Spring, Texas, USA
> From: Jon Spangler <jonswriter@att.net>
\r?\n> Subject: Re: [CR] "fake" 1950s Carltom Massed Start
\r?\n> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
\r?\n> Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 11:58 PM
\r?\n> Dear Don,
\r?\n>
\r?\n> I appreciate your expert critique of the decals and finish
\r?\n> on this "fake" Carlton bike, but am still left wondering
\r?\n> whether the frame is a genuine
\r?\n> 1950s Massed Start that has been modernized and repainted
\r?\n> (albeit with improper decals) or whether it is, as you say,
\r?\n> a later model of Carlton
\r?\n> that has been misidentified or mislabeled by the seller.
\r?\n>
\r?\n> We have frequent discussions here about the lug and fork
\r?\n> crown variations (seemingly discernible by month) on Masis,
\r?\n> Cinellis, and other Italian classics, for instance, and I
\r?\n> know enough about what to look for just from skimming them.
\r?\n> How does one distinguish a genuine 1950s Carlton Massed
\r?\n> Start
\r?\n> (or any other similar frame) from its later brethren based
\r?\n> on the unique frame design details? How does one ascertain
\r?\n> that the frame underneath this gorgeous paint job is or is
\r?\n> not a Carlton "of a certain age"?
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Looking forward to further enlightenment,
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Jon Spangler
\r?\n> Trying to learn something about Carltons and authenticity
\r?\n> in Alameda, CA USA
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n>
\r?\n> On Oct 4, 2009, at 7:32 AM, <classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org>
\r?\n> <classicrendezvous-request@bikelist.org>
\r?\n> wrote:
\r?\n>
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Message: 2
\r?\n> > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 20:19:37 -0700
\r?\n> > From: donald gillies <gillies@ece.ubc.ca>
\r?\n> > Subject: Re: [CR] ebay outing: amazing carlton - fake,
\r?\n> fake, fake
\r?\n> > To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
\r?\n> > Cc: chasds@mindspring.com,
\r?\n> gwlone@yahoo.ca
\r?\n> > Message-ID: <20091004031937.396184F419@lvs1-r4.ece.ubc.ca>
\r?\n> > Content-Type: text/plain
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > I have a 1950 flyer and I've seen massed starts and
\r?\n> super pythons on
\r?\n> > ebay, and of course I saved the photos in my archive
\r?\n> of Carlton Art.
\r?\n> > This is a beautiful bike, just beautiful. But
\r?\n> it's certainly not a
\r?\n> > 1950's Massed Start bike. It could possibly be
\r?\n> an early 1960's bike
\r?\n> > of some sort.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > I'll tell you just why this bike is a fake.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > 1. First, bikes in the 50's era had a different
\r?\n> seat tube decal.
\r?\n> > Even though reproductions of
\r?\n> that vintage seat tube decal are
\r?\n> > available from Nick at Lloyds,
\r?\n> I'll can tell you exactly why the
\r?\n> > painter didn't use the
\r?\n> reproductions, assuming he knew what he was
\r?\n> > doing. The painter used
\r?\n> a 2nd head tube decal because the seat
\r?\n> > tube decal SHOULD contain THE
\r?\n> MODEL NAME within the seat tube
\r?\n> > decal to be authentic.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > My 1950 Carlton Flyer says
\r?\n> "FLYER" within the decal.
\r?\n> > Another 50's bike says "SUPER
\r?\n> PYTHON" within the decal.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Pix available on request.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > 2. My 1950 Carlton flyer is reynolds 531
\r?\n> throughout, but more
\r?\n> > importantly, its freak'in
\r?\n> light, a 1900 grams frame for a 23"
\r?\n> > sized frame. The 531
\r?\n> decal used on my bike is the "thumbnail"
\r?\n> > sized decal that just says
\r?\n> '531'. It doesn't have all the
\r?\n> > B.S. contained on the decal in
\r?\n> the auction.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > 3. More importantly, where's the frick'in
\r?\n> 'Carlton' script decal that
\r?\n> > belongs on the top tube or
\r?\n> downtube, much like what Raleigh
\r?\n> > adopted in the 70's?
\r?\n> What Raleigh adopted in the 70's, Carlton
\r?\n> > was doing in the 50's.
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > Excuse my french. I have
\r?\n> MADE copies of this decal PRECISELY
\r?\n> > BECAUSE its so difficult to
\r?\n> find. SSSINK.com doesn't make it.
\r?\n> > The bike should not have block
\r?\n> letters on the downtube, it should
\r?\n> > be script letters, just like
\r?\n> on my 1950 Carlton Flyer, and like
\r?\n> > the early 1960's Carlton
\r?\n> Franco-Suisse that I am turning a Raleigh
\r?\n> > International into ...
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> > - Don Gillies
\r?\n> > San Diego, CA, USA
\r?\n> >
\r?\n> >
\r?\n>
\r?\n> Jon Spangler
\r?\n> Writer/editor
\r?\n> Linda Hudson Writing
\r?\n>
\r?\n> PLEASE NOTE NEW CONTACT INFO
\r?\n> TEL 510-864-2144
\r?\n> CEL 510-846-5356
\r?\n> JonSwriter@att.net
\r?\n> http://www.linkedin.com/
\r?\n> http://www.twitter.com/