Re: [CR] Help with 531 decal on 1970 Schwinn Paramount - Reynolds 531 decal timeline

(Example: Framebuilders:Dario Pegoretti)

From: "R.S. Broderick" <rsb000@hotmail.com>
To: <classicrendezvous@bikelist.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 13:42:04 -0700
Thread-Index: AcpMLBIiFDq8MJbMQY2P6kN9YwOFsQAGT+0g
In-Reply-To: <377670.14584.qm@web82204.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Cc: jerrymoos@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: [CR] Help with 531 decal on 1970 Schwinn Paramount - Reynolds 531 decal timeline


Jerry,

With a HUGE caveat that I claim to have absolutely NO expertise with respect to Schwinn specific variants of Reynolds decals, and therefore I have nothing to offer specifically in that regard, I submit for your abstract consideration in formulating some sort of Reynolds 531 decal timeline the following information (...please be sure to read the text associated with each photographic reference):

Reynolds 531 decal (1960's to 1975): http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemIdc23 http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemIdc35&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Reynolds 531 decal (1975 to 1977): http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemIdc65 http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId$981&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Reynolds 531 decal (1977 to 1981): http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemIdc76

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemIde58&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Perhaps worthy of delving into for those who revel in the arcane, there was at least one, perhaps two, other "generic" (...which is to say, non Schwinn specific) version(s) of Reynolds 531 decal produced during the decade of the 1970's. The first of these most certainly does exist and was typically found on bicycles built no earlier than March of 1974 (...when trademark status was first granted on their 531 logo) through roughly the first month or two of 1975. One of these rather rare decals may be seen on my 1975 Crescent Pepita 320 (...you need not read all of the verbiage associated with these two pictures, just scroll down to view the image itself).

Before: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId 722&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

After: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId 787&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Basically, the graphic in question is comprised of a Reynolds pre 1975 decal with the singular addition of a registered trademark notation absent the additional "banner" information existent on their 1975 to 1977 decal. Coincident to having my Crescent repainted by Elliot Bay Bicycles in Seattle, I managed to coax Greg Softley into reproducing a few of these oddball transitional decals given that he already had the vast majority of necessary artwork completed. And while he was most gracious and accommodating with respect to my personal request, Greg has thus far chosen not to offer this permutation for regular sale on eBay reasoning that its presence might serve to only further muddle the issue of exactly which Reynolds decal is proper for a given timeframe.

The second of what may well be considered a 1970's transitional Reynolds decal is one that I have never once seen "in the flesh", so to speak. However, an advertisement which appeared July of 1974 clearly shows a distinctive version of the 531 decal:

http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemIdc53&g2_imageViewsIndex=1

It is nearly the same as that 531 decal typically used from 1975 to 1977 having the additional "banner" information. But in this instance, the decal depicted in the advertisement is conspicuously missing the registered trademark indicator. Was this particular version ever actually printed up and distributed? I do not know, and as I stated earlier, I have personally never seen one of them. Should anyone of the CR List membership be able to positively confirm, one way or the other, the existence of this iteration of Reynolds 531 decal, I welcome their input.

One final thought regarding date assignments mentioned relative to any of the aforementioned decals. One should always bear in mind that it was common for all but the most prolific framebuilders, or those who produced so few as to never justify keeping any held inventory whatsoever, to have on hand a tubset and corresponding set of decals that may well turn out to pre-date that point in time when said tubes were actually brazed up into a frameset. As a result, one would rightly expect to see some degree of overlap in the appearance / disappearance of these decals over the course of contemporary production.

Robert "Reynolds ruminations" Broderick ...the "Chronically Cloudy Clime" of Oregon Portland, USA

-----Original Message----- From: classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org [mailto:classicrendezvous-bounces@bikelist.org] On Behalf Of Jerome & Elizabeth Moos Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 10:38 AM To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org; edvintage63@aol.com Subject: Re: [CR] Help with 531 decal on 1970 Schwinn Paramount

Ah, well this becomes more confusing. Note on the CR site there are least three "generations" of 531 decals, even between 1960 and the end of the CR OT timeline.

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Reynolds_gallery.htm

The first is the old-style smaller decal, with only one section, stating only the product name Reynolds 531 and the what tubes were 531 and what tubes butted. No panel giving the name of the company or its location.

Next, a panel is added at the bottom with Reynolds Tube Co. Ltd, Birmingham, England. My past experience restoring Raleighs, and also in having some French-language 531 decals reproduced, is that the "Reynolds Tube Co." decals first appeared around 1974. Oddly, they don't refer to TI (Tubing Investments) even though TI had long owned Reynolds by 1974.

Finally, at least for the CR timeline, The panel is changed to include the logo of TI and perhaps refer to "TI Reynolds". This seems to have been about 1976 or 1977. It's hard to pin down exact years, not only because bike manufacturers would use up old stock before switching, but also because Raleigh, being owned by TI, might get a new style a year or two before anyone else. It's also known that Schwinn, Jack Taylor and Bates had special versions of the 531 decals.

Now The CR site shows a "Schiwnn" version with horizonal "531" flanked by stars, with revised wording. But it is old-style with no panel. If such an old-style Schwinn version existed, it should have been before 1974. Yet lots of early 70's Paramounts have the "normal" decal with the diagonal "531". I have somehow managed to accumulate three additional early 70's all-chrome Paramounts besides the 1970 touring model. All are racing models, a 71, a 72 and a 73. The 71 and 72 both have 'normal" diagonal old style decals which I'm almost sure are original. The 1973, for which I am less confident of the originality of the decals, has a "normal" diagonal decal with the Reynolds Tube Co. panel.

As a result of this thread, is it pretty clear the Schwinn version TI decal supplied by Waterford is too new for the 1970 Paramount, and that an old-style with no panel below is needed. What is not clear is whether it should be the "Schwinn" version or the "normal" version. A couple of CR members have indicted they may have a repro Schwinn version for me, so I may go with that.

BTW, someone mentioned that they thought the "Schwinn" version appeared in the classic Sloane book. So did I, but I cannot find it there. However, it is fascinating to read the caption below the various 531 decals pictured on page 66 of the original edition:

"Any bicycle made with any grade of Reynolds 531 is better than one made with any other kind of tubing."

Pretty clearly untrue, and indeed Sloane even contradicts himself at the end of the same paragraph when he says: "Please note that Columbus tubing, used on some Italian bicycles, is comparable to Reynolds."

We sometimes forget that Sloane, prior to writing "The Complete Book of Bicycling", was not really an expert. He was not an engineer, framebuilder, ex-racer or bike shop owner or mechanic, but rather a guy from Sales and PR who had become enthused about cycling. Rather remarkable that he had the nerve to write the book, and even more remarkable he did such a good job of it, a few statements like the above notwithstanding. But I think he fit the times in America. In 1970 most Americans thought an "English Racer" was actually used for racing, and the mysterious thing called a derailleur shown on the Varsity in the Schwinn catalogs had us scratching our heads as to how such a thing worked. Even though there were many guys way more technically qualified, Sloane's non-expert, but enthusiatic, tone was exactly what was needed to open the world of quality lightweight bicycles to the broad American audience. I sometimes wonder if the book was sold in UK, and if so, what British readers thought of it. For the more knowledgeable UK audience perhaps it seemed simplistic and naive, making a great to do about things which to them seemed obvious.

Regards,

Jerry Moos
big Spring, Texas, USA


--- On Mon, 10/12/09, edvintage63@aol.com wrote:


> From: edvintage63@aol.com <edvintage63@aol.com>
> Subject: [CR] Help with 531 decal on 1970 Schwinn Paramount (Ed Granger)
> To: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org
> Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 7:47 PM
>
> Jerry,
>
> I've researched this a bit before, and did so a bit again
> following your query. I'm pretty sure the "special" decal
> used on many Schwinns (and also Raleighs) with the stars was
> not yet in use in 1970. So I concur with your sense that the
> "Ti" bit is inappropriate, but I also believe the "stars"
> and horizontal "531" are wrong as well (and hence trimming
> the decal may not solve your issue).
>
> Ed Granger
> Lancaster, Pennsylvania, USA
>
> Quote:______________________________________________________________________ _______
> The 531 decal is the version used by Schwinn, and
> occasionally perhaps a couple
> of other builders, with the "531" horizonal and flanked by
> stars, and the
> wording revised to make it clearer that only the maintubes,
> not the forks and
> stays, are butted.  Rather obvious, but evidently
> needed to satisfy Schwinn's
> lawyers.  This version is included here on the CR
> site:
>
> http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Reynolds_gallery.htm
>
> HOWEVER, the 531 decal supplied also has the panel on the
> bottom referring to TI
> Reynolds, which I thought did not appear until the mid/late
> 70's.  Am I correct
> about this?  Waterford is trying to cover several
> years of similar Paramount
> graphics here, and perhaps this decal would be correct for
> mid 70's Paramounts
> with otherwise similar decals, but I'm thinking the TI
> Reynolds panel should not
> be on a 1970.  It looks like the TI panel could be
> trimmed off leaving the
> remainder more or less the correct shape for the earlier
> Schwinn version of the
> 531 decal.  I'm inclined to do that unless advised
> otherwise.  Opinions?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry Moos
> Big Spring, Texas, USA