Jan Heine wrote(like a year ago)
"...Every couple of months, we get a famous bike on this list, and most of the time, it turns out to be just a normal old bike. Perhaps it is time to establish some standards for what we accept as authentication? Does a letter from the maker, obtained recently, really prove that a bike is what we think it is?
I believe the answer is no, unless it is based on serial numbers or other period records, or clear identifying marks.
A lot of people think the makers keep track of history, and know exactly when something was introduced, when a date stamp changed, who rode which bike, etc.
In my research for Bicycle Quarterly, I have found that, with very rare exceptions, most makers look forward, to the future, because they have a company to run. They have a fuzzy-warm feeling about the past, but the details often have slipped from their minds, because they never cared much about them in the first place. There is a quote of Colin Chapman, when shown his first production sports car, the ground-braking 1950s Elite, late in his life. Rather than being overcome with nostalgia, all he had to say was: "I did not remember how narrow they were." His mind was firmly in the future, always on the next project.
So if you ask a maker: "Do you think this bike I found really was ridden by xyz? Can you identify it from photos?" the only correct answer would be "I don't know."
In many cases, a builder will want to spoil your fun, and what harm does it do, anyhow? So you may get a reply: "Sure, yes, it looks like the bikes we made for Moser. It seems that you have an incredible treasure there. Wonderful!" And with that, they have made you happy.
Imagine if they said "I don't know." Half the owners would come back and ask: "Please, can't you look through your records? Can I bring by the bike and have you examine it?" and so on, and if the maker doesn't have time, the bike owner may get upset, and post online that De Rosa doesn't care about their history, and is just interested in making money, etc.
Europe's museums are full of historic bikes that aren't. I have seen a 56 cm Bianchi ridden by Fausto Coppi (he rode at least a 59 cm frame!), and a Jacques Anquetil bike where the seatstay caps were engraved "J - A" as shown on some Rebour drawings. However, careful inspection showed that the engraved seatstay caps were crudely brazed OVER the original seatstay caps! The museum's owner replied: "How do you know they did not always constructed their bikes that way?"
So what do we need to accept a bike as real?
Obviously, all the features of the bike need to match the original photos and drawings, or there must be traces of modifications that show that the bike originally matched the description. Beyond that, there must be a clear trail that identifies the bike.
So what do we accept as "provenance"? I suggest serial numbers are good, if there are records at the factory. (Of course, serial numbers can be faked. Harry Butler in Britain used to sell fake Thanets with serial numbers that matched the surviving records, but the font was not the same.)
If the bike came from the original racer, that is useful. Even if the original racer tried to sell a fake, they rarely have the means (and knowledge - see above) to make a convincing fake.
I am sure there are other ways to authenticate a bike - let's discuss this a bit....."
Jan et al
Here,my new version of the find i posted about a year ago.Yes,i do agree with you on certain aspects of your opinion,but these words lead me to think to the framebuilders in this list and their memories.What about them?We have Baylis,Sachs,Gordon,Fattics etc in here.Lotsa people send them messages about their bikes.If a potential buy is the real deal,if its a repainted one,about the vintage and so on.....So,shall we doubt them on their replies?Shall we take Chapman words as Gospel?I had the chance to hook up with Ugo,an dlemme tell you,his memory appeared(to me,at least) razor sharp with cool anedoctes.Below,my report.
After a year long investigation,im now able to offer two authentic and certified pro-owned and ridden DE ROSA track bikes.They are actually three,but im keeping one,because it happen to be my size.Im offerin it here first,then(probably) they will go to ebay.Price is solid,and this is a non -negotiable one time offer.Please check the following link for pix of the 3 bikes,plus pix of the de rosa factory visit and paperwork(more is comin)There are also pics of Mr.Gradi checkin his bike(wasnt too keen to have pix taken) plus pix of him racing from his personal archive(ill call him again,for the few,last,extra details)According to Mr.Ugo De ROsa,the two bikes i have,belonged to Moreno Argentin.He recognized the bikes pretty much right away,but as he explained me,what i have,are even rarer.Why?He told me that what i have are are De Rosa bikes that were once labelled as BENOTTO,then Moreno moved from that team,bikes were repainted in the classic Ugo blue.Also,he told me that he clearly remember that,becuz he had to bondo/file(dont remember now which one) off the derosa logo off the seatstay caps,due to the bikes being labelled with a different brand.Im waiting to call him again,to ask what was the previous team Morenos was in.Please ,for pix,see this link
http://www.flickr.com/
I also found some other links with some infos about the racers and teams
http://www.sitodelciclismo.net/
When i walked in,i thought i was goin to talk to Ugo's son,but instead,Ugo in person showed up.I was expectin a Brian Baylis sized dude,but,man,was i wrong!Dude is tall as Gabriel ROmeu, and smokes like a turkish sailor.When he first saw the bikes,his first question was"What you gonna do with these bikes?"i replied"well,ill keep one,the other twos....ill see""NAH!"goes Ugo"ill tell you what to do .Ill give you names and numbers of some japanese buyers that will give you GOLD for these bikes!"I smiled at him"well,ill think about it!"Then he asked"One thing,how/where did you get those?"I knew that such question was goin to be asked so i told him"Well,believe it or not,i walked into a gas station to pay for gas,and i walked out with three track bikes......"(SILENCE..UGO RAISES HIS EYEBROW AND GOES,WITH A NOD)"In a gas station.........?" "YEp!" I nodded back.So,after this quick exchange,he asked me if there were any serial numbers on the bikes,and i said that there were none.Too bad,he says,i ve could tell you exactly the year with those codes.I believe that those are early 80s bikes,82/83,Morenos are probably slightly older.but dont worry,ill have my secretary ready to authenticate these for you with some proper paperwork.Then we started tlkin about random things,and he asked me if i could send him some real Tuscan prosciutto,and i said,no problems!(yes,i did send him some!)Then he started to tell me ho whe built a frame overnight (for Merckx,IIRC)and how he painted it without primering it,due to the lack of time,becuz frame had to reach Rome(IIRC)He also told me a little about Argentin and Gradi mixing it with a random chat about traffic,weather and whatever else was popping up during the talking.He was nice enough to show me around the factory,where he showed me one of Merckx bikes and an early model one(60s?)He showed me production,and how he still occasionally builds,or better saying,put hands on some frames.His words were"See,i start a frame,then i get tired due to a problem with my eyes,so i go to the bar,have coffee,and i hang there for a bit.Then,someone else of the boys,will finish it.These eyes are a pain!Then as we were walking back towards the office,he says"See that guys back there?"pointing the finger to a dude that was bending and cutting some tubes"He's scared of me"Why,i asked"BEcuz i beat him up...if he makes mistakes..slap!!Now,hes much better than me!"(pause,me looking at the guy from far away)then i whispered"Ugo,you are old school huh?"He dint really reply,we walked to the office ,where i would then load the cars back into the car....
He signed the paper work that was ready on the desk,another quick chat,and i moved outside to place the bikes back inside the car.He walked outside,after a short bit,asking if i would drive back to FLorence right away.As i was loading the car,i see the wheels that i picked up with the bikes,so i decided to show one to Ugo.This wheel has the letter F.M: written with a marker on the rim,so i thought that this could be one of the wheel that was used by Francesco Moser,as Francescos was one of the racer that the previous owner managed.Ugo picks up the wheel,and start looking at it,and while doing it,he lit up a cig.I knew that moment was goin to be epic,so i looked at Ugo and.."Ugo,can i have one too?"He didnt say anything,kept watching the wheel a she was about to true it,reached with one hand in the pocket,and pulled out the pack.I pick one,he pulls the pack back in,i light it up,waiting for a comment,after i told him the little story.He went"Well,it could totally be,also,this is a damn good wheel,but i forgot what those were called!"He kept looking at it,he mentioned something a those holes in the tire bed,and about the rotting tire.After that,i placed the wheel back inside the car,we greeted each other,with me saying that i would send that prosciutto.See pix of the wheel here
http://www.wooljersey.com/
Also,with the bikes,came this unusual campagnolo hub,which is narrower that the normal hubs and with unusual 36 holes combo(thanx Tom Dalton to make me noticin it)
http://www.wooljersey.com/
Each Argentin's bike is available for 8000 usd.Also,im considerin to sell my stash of NOS/used parts along with the bikes,or as a stash only(if you are interested,lemme know,and ill make a list with my asking price)I would really like to find someone that is interested in the stash,as im trying to get rid of everything as soon as possible.
Please,if you have questions,feel free to email me,if you comments,please,keep em on list,there is a purpose ,for this place!
Thanx
Matteo"..It was a long year..."Brandi,Firenze,Italia