Another thing we need to consider here, is the speed held through turns. If you are riding at say 15mph or less through 90 degree turns, I don't think you can talk much about handling characteristics between one type or the other. I ride tubulars on my vintage bikes, and clinchers on my modern bikes ... not by choice specifically, but by default .. as in, that's what was on the bike (or in the case of vintage restorations, what I have deemed appropriate for the bike). The tubulars are inflated to about 115psi, and the clinchers to about 110psi. I also like to ride hard and fast, and I love screaming through turns. Thinking about it now, I guess I can admit that my vintage bikes, namely my 84 Torpado Superlight that is used most oft, give me a little bit more secure feeling in the high speed turns, compared to the slick tread, carbon reinforced clinchers on my two modern bikes. However, I had yet to try out inflating the clinchers only to 100psi, as has been suggested many times here, and by local people more experienced than I. Just recently though, I went on a "modern" ride, but forgot to top off the tires to my normal 110psi. Having just ridden the same bike a couple day before, I would guess that the pressure was closer to 100psi. Again, I have to admit that the bike felt more stable through turns than before, with less harsh bounce or rattling, but I have yet to try it through one of the real zigzag, criterium type sections that we often ride though. You can bet that I'm going to try it next time. FYI, I finally looked down at my computer on my modern bike while doing this a few days ago, and noticed that I was traveling at 24.5mph ... FUN STUFF! List member Tom Dusky has been with me in these sections, and can probably affirm that I do really try to fly through them. Also, as I noted above, my clinchers are smooth tread, and so it might be harder to compare them, to the kind of tiny bump made cross-hatch tread on Continental Sprinter tubulars, for example. That notwithstanding, I think the real point of my post is that the difference might only be felt when in a genuine high speed turn, not by cruising easy around a couple of turns. At least I don't notice any difference at low speeds. Kind of like comparing the acceleration of a Corvette to a Chevette ... when traveling through a 15mph parking lot. There just isn't much of any real test there, with which to compare. Oh, and then there is the concept of accelerating through turns, leaning your body in while trying to keep the bike more upright to help maintain grip. But that is likely something that not many on the list do, I'm guessing. Flame me not please, I'm just reporting it as I experience it. But I'll try to write again about the subject, when I've run the clinchers at 100psi, hard through some real fast turns. Ciao,Mark AgreeSouthfield MI USA ~ ~ ~ Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:37:16 +0100From: Hilary Stone <hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk>Subject: Re: [CR] Tubulars v Clinchers.....shot at dawnTo: Emilio Bozzi <emiliobozzi@hotmail.com>Cc: greg@nofatmusic.com, classicrendezvous@bikelist.orgBut what you have taken out is that they were better than the cheap tubulars - Veloflex clinchers out perform the cheap tubulars on every count except pinch puncture resistance and ride flat performance. Their ride is really nice, they corner and grip beautifully and considerably better than the cheaper heavier type tubs... Their rolling resistance was not on par with the Clement Crit tubs or Veloflex tubs tested at the same time but you are talking about the best of the best with those... And these were real road rolling resistance tests - not done on a drum or lab but tested properly in repeatable tests on real road...However the tubeless tyres which are now beginning to be available will outperform tubs...Hilary Stone, Bristol, British IslesEmilio Bozzi wrote:> RE:> Veloflex clinchers were then steets ahead of other clinchers> and /_close in performance _/to the best tubulars {underline edit}> > Hilary, thanks for your response, and one that is a very noble and > common refrain.> Please don't feel that I am singling you out, as I am not, but I have > lost count of how many times I have heard that modern clinchers ride > "just as good as" or "almost just as good as any sew-up".> > Allow me to pose a simple question to CR listers and ask them how many > time they have heard just the opposite:> "I really like these sew-ups they ride just as good as clinchers!"> I sure as heck have never heard anyone say that.> And there is an obvious simple reason:> Clinchers have never ridden, handled or performed as good any sew-ups in > my experience, ever.> > Those folks that have changed out their beautiful steeds OEM with > sew-ups for those bizarre clincher contraptions---and you know who you > are---should be shot at dawn! But not before you bequeath me the sew-ups > you haven't yet thrown away. (-:> > Nels Cone> Seattle WA> > p.s. years ago, I wrote a rather indepth article on sew-ups versus > clinchers, complete with graphics for the Bicycle Trader. I do not know > if Bradley Woehl is still on this list, but if he is, maybe he can dig > it out and send it to us.> > > Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:04:11 +0100> > From: hilary.stone@blueyonder.co.uk> > To: greg@nofatmusic.com> > CC: classicrendezvous@bikelist.org> > Subject: Re: [CR] Tubulars v Clinchers> >> > When we did rolling resistence tests at Cycling Plus magazine in the> > 1990s the Veloflex clinchers were then steets ahead of other clinchers> > and close in performance to the best tubulars - and certainly offered> > better performance than the cheap tubulars...> >> > Hilary Stone, Bristol, British Isles> >> > Greg Arnold wrote:> > > Ahh! The conundrum of logic and language!> > >> > >> Hi Michael,> > >>> > >> If you have never used anything other than tubulars on your bikes > then how> > >> do you know that nothing else compares with their ride quality ?> > >>> > >> Regards> > >>> > >> Ken Hume> > >> London, England> > >> > > Ill leave it to Michael to respond - but I know he's been riding a long> > > time, bought his first few Masi's from Falerio personally, and has > had a lot> > > of experience. I'm guessing he, like many of us, had ridden other > peoples> > > bikes with clinchers and decided long ago they were inferior rides!> > >> > > But it brings up a topic I didn't find a lot of archive info on --> > >> > > I'm interested in is what kind of tires the listers have found to be> > > 'stellar' rides from among the few brand choices left these days.> > >> > > I am curious because I've been running my own - costly! - test by > swapping> > > various sets of wheels on my fav rides to compare. This is > primarily because> > > I bought a stunning 63 cinelli last month - completely original > except with> > > Spence Wolf clinchers (the horror!) built on 60s hubs with the > usual spence> > > wolf touch of soldered spokes. I was told they were built in 1990, > so I'm> > > halfway off topic, but I expect a list variance! (since the wheels > are on a> > > 1963 SC) My first clinchers ever.> > >> > > Ive also been a sew-ups only rider all my life, but I must say, with> > > veloflex pave tires these clincher wheels are really tight, ride> > > beautifully, are pretty to look at, look just like low profile > tubulars, and> > > I'm told have a reliably long life. I've swapped the wheel set > among several> > > 60s and 70s bikes I own, and find them quite nice. I'm 6'2/185 so I > ride> > > larger bikes @62-63cm and I guess for even heavier riders/large > bikes these> > > clinchers may be a nice alternative.> > >> > > I have also found Tufo Pro 33s to be bullet proof, very well > balanced and> > > consistently made, thin profiled, and lovely. Plus they are cheap. > My only> > > gripe is cosmetic - the tan sidewalls oxidize over time and turn almost> > > black. Anyone else have this issue? Or tried cleaning them with any > luck?> > > Please let me know how its done!> > >> > > Next I bought some larger profile vintage Clemente grifo 61s last > month to> > > further the experiment. Much larger profile, decent well balanced > tires and> > > period correct, handsome, but no great ride improvement.> > >> > > Finally I have been also riding Gommitalia Platinums. Premium > tires, perfect> > > balance, thin profile, very pretty in tan and black, and my top> > > recommendation if cost isn't an issue. They average $100/ a piece.> > >> > > So - anyone else care to chime in? Would love to know what people > are riding> > > these days and why.> > >> > > Gorgeous day in NYC, I'm off to soak up some road on the Veloflex > Paves!> > >> > > Thanks> > > Greg Arnold NYC> > > greg@nofatmusic.com> > > http://www.nofatmusic.com**************We found the real \u2018Hotel California\u2019 and the \u2018Seinfeld\u2019 diner. What will you find? Explore WhereItsAt.com. (http://www.whereitsat.com/#/music/all-spots/355/47.796964/-66.374711/2/Youve-Found-Where-Its-At?ncid=emlcntnew00000007)